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Developer reviewing the Pavilion situation

7:37am Tuesday 2nd December 2008

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DEVELOPER Howard Holdings admitted today that it is reviewing the £120 million redevelopment scheme for Weymouth Pavilion.

Its statement throws fresh doubt into the whole future of the controversial project.

“The proposal is under review. We are like every other developer in the UK and every other scheme in the UK.”

Geoff Sparrow, Howard Holdings

Howard’s investment director Geoff Sparrow told the Echo: “The proposal is under review. We are like every other developer in the UK and every other scheme in the UK.”

Mr Sparrow said Howard Holdings had nothing more to add to its statement.

But Weymouth and Portland Borough Council chief executive Tom Grainger said: “Their comment is consistent with what we understood their position to be, namely that the economics of the scheme need to be reviewed.

“However, we still need prompt confirmation that Howard Holdings intends to proceed with its planning application for the scheme.”

The authority has been desperately trying to get confirmation from the company over whether it intends to meet its building obligations under the building agreement and whether it will be going ahead with a planning application.

Mr Grainger said: “We have followed the legal process set out in the development agreement and we now await a response from Howard Holdings by the deadline set, which is early next week.

“If the deadline passes without a response from them then we will take legal advice on what our next step should be.”

At stake is a controversial scheme which includes 340 apartments in a complex rising in parts to eight storeys and a remodelled Pavilion Theatre with the backstage and front-of-house facilities revamped.

The project also includes a marina with 290 berths, a world heritage centre, an improved ferry terminal, a covered car park with 400 spaces, beachside performance space and a 140-bed four-star hotel, shops, restaurants, strengthened sea defences and a pier.

Uncertainty over the future of the scheme has rekindled opposition to it by objectors who want to see the whole redevelopment scaled down.

They claim that the credit crunch means that it will be virtually impossible for any large-scale scheme to be achieved on time and they have renewed calls for a public inquiry to be held into the scheme.

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Your Say YourDorset Echo

Ask Archie, Weymouth says...
8:18am Tue 2 Dec 08

Nobody should be really surprised by this,HH have been tagging the council along right from the start.
I said in comments months & months ago that HH would not produce the goods.

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Techie, Weymouth says...
9:39am Tue 2 Dec 08

So you were proved completely right and this had nothing AT ALL to do with the current global financial situation? For them not to review the plans at this stage would be completely irresponsible and I hazard a guess you'd be lambasting them for that as well.

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mikeman, Portland says...
9:59am Tue 2 Dec 08

I expect them to come back and say that it will only be viable if they add another floor or maybe scale down the development so that we get less out of it. And we should tell them to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. The other option is that they just start it & leave it so we are left with a building site.

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Albo, Wyke Regis says...
10:12am Tue 2 Dec 08

How about leaving it as it is? Because what Weymouth REALLY needs is a crumbling theatre, a car park and a bunch of portakabins.

/sarcasm

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ian paul, Preston says...
10:38am Tue 2 Dec 08

Hi Every one,
I dont normally write regarding planning issues, I do trust the planners on the Borough council to do a reasonible job on behalf of all of us rate payers.
Please wonder around Weymouth take off your rose couloured spectacles and just take in what you see. A very old sea side resort which is run down and stuggling its not good for the current restaurants, traders, hoteliers and holiday makers.
Howard Holdings are a company whom believe they have the investment, the fore sight and the ability to give us a new developed habour scheme.
I hope this is still a good opportunity for them if they need a extra floor to make it viable allow it we should encourage investment into Weymouth not build walls to prevent it.
The Pavillion Theatre, what is good about it in its existing state.
The Existing Harbour is small expensive and full, with very little to encourage boaters to come and stay in Weymouth.
Most of the larger UK companies hold conferences around the UK, would they come to Weymouth! NO good hotels are required, along with cheaper smaller conference hotels (hey we have these).
We are missing out on this opportunity completly, We need people to come to Weymouth, impress them then they return again and again. We need better access roads, we need smarter venues.
Please dont stand still Weymouth, go forward or be left behind for ever! New Development now means a successful future jobs and opportunities! get on with it quickly please Howard Holdings.

Ian-Bowleaze Coveway

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stephen b., Weymouth says...
12:42pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Over 500 of us were in the Pavilion when the council approved this scheme. Almost all of us were against it. Our objections are still valid...

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mikeman, Portland says...
1:59pm Tue 2 Dec 08

ian paul wrote:
Hi Every one, I dont normally write regarding planning issues, I do trust the planners on the Borough council to do a reasonible job on behalf of all of us rate payers. Please wonder around Weymouth take off your rose couloured spectacles and just take in what you see. A very old sea side resort which is run down and stuggling its not good for the current restaurants, traders, hoteliers and holiday makers. Howard Holdings are a company whom believe they have the investment, the fore sight and the ability to give us a new developed habour scheme. I hope this is still a good opportunity for them if they need a extra floor to make it viable allow it we should encourage investment into Weymouth not build walls to prevent it. The Pavillion Theatre, what is good about it in its existing state. The Existing Harbour is small expensive and full, with very little to encourage boaters to come and stay in Weymouth. Most of the larger UK companies hold conferences around the UK, would they come to Weymouth! NO good hotels are required, along with cheaper smaller conference hotels (hey we have these). We are missing out on this opportunity completly, We need people to come to Weymouth, impress them then they return again and again. We need better access roads, we need smarter venues. Please dont stand still Weymouth, go forward or be left behind for ever! New Development now means a successful future jobs and opportunities! get on with it quickly please Howard Holdings. Ian-Bowleaze Coveway
Hi Ian I think its you that needs to look, at what you have written its nothing but crap we have all the marina’s we want & most people object to the size of the development as it is, without adding anymore & we also have conference facilities & hotels on Portland as well as some in Weymouth.
You are only looking at it as a means to make money from tourists well it may supprise you to know that a lot of people live here & may take the same attitude as I in so much as this is my town first & foremost if tourists want to come here that’s fine but we don’t have to build the town just for them. No I do not want the HH development it is to big & will be a blot on the landscape & the marina is just a ploy to sell the overpriced flats with a berth. If this was built & it upset the tidal flow where would your tourists be without a beach to sit on.

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ian paul, Preston says...
3:58pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Hi Stephen B
What does the future for Weymouth hold if we don't invest in new developments. We have an ageing population,an old fashioned town,a very low paid workforce, What is the answer. Its very easy for any one to say what you don't want.Look
how many shops are empty, how many restaurants, bars and hotels change hands quickly. Investment is the future we have the olympics coming lets work on making Weymouth a place to be proud off.

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Skiff, Weymouth says...
4:22pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Ian Paul, Albo, Techie, couldn’t agree more. But from previous exchanges it seems we’re up against people who are only interested in emotional argument. The facts are straightforward. 1. The site is an eyesore and needs fixing. 2. It will cost money. 3. Either we the residents will pay, or a developer can take the risk and recoup by selling flats, hotel space etc.

By objecting and delaying and trying to force what they consider to be a better solution (ie. Just fix the Pavillion and leave the rest of the eyesore) the protesters, if successful, will have achieved not only the retention of a dismal and depressing eyesore, but a stack of extra costs for the residents of Weymouth, because without a developer we would all have to pay.

I agree with Techie, and hope that HH’s review shows the project is still viable.

I look forward with interest to the FESoW’s (Flat Earth Society of Weymouth) next project. Probably something to do with banning the Olympics on the grounds our sailors might fall off the edge…

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mark@greenhill, weymouth says...
5:05pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Well said Ian!
Unfortunatly the "keep weymouth in the dark ages brigade" still think that someone else will come along and invest in this very tired looking town.
They seem quite happy to object to anything that encourages more people & more money in.
In this day and financial climate, we need to grab all and any opportunity to get investment in, especially as the harbour is going to cost us millions to rebuild without some sort of developer taking it over.
The hard fact is, that developers need to make a profit and why shouldnt they?
If this project needs another floor of flats or a larger marina or even, dare I say it, a smaller theater, then so be it.
I know a lot of people will wail about the view, but how many have actually looked at what is there right now?
And don't the anti everything brigade realise, there was probably just as much opposition to the very thing they are trying to save?
After all, neither the pavilion or the nothe fort are natural landscape are they?

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Skiff, Weymouth says...
5:32pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Just so Mark, nicely put.

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franchise, weymouth says...
6:03pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Ian stated...I do trust the planners on the Borough council to do a reasonible job on behalf of all of us rate payers.Why, for what reason? Yes look around Weymouth. It has been neglected, looks shabby, rundown and pretty awful. Just building a little further on to this shabby part a super modern area is not going to change the shabby part. We shall have two areas, a shabby ghetto which through lack of investment will become worse and evening wise, a no-go area and the up-market area where people who have paid a fortune to live will have their own rich ghetto. If this is not social engineering I don't know what is.
Instead of all our letters of the yesses and nos, why not ideas. It has been mentioned that Weymouth has an ageing population. This will not always be the case, why not a youth centre to get kids off the street and doing something purposeful. The noise, if loud,
would not be heard by anyone out there. It could have all kind of venues for training, health, etc., for the whole population. A few separate purposeful buildings to get the population together and not apart, which is what the present plans are. This is just off the cuff, I am sure there are great ideas floating out there which would be more suitable.


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maggot, Weymouth says...
6:09pm Tue 2 Dec 08

However, lots and lots of us like Weymouth as it is. And to judge by the fact that everywhere is full all summer long there are plenty of other people who like it like this too. In the coming hard times even more people are going to need somewhere less expensive to go on holiday, not some flash, pricey boat-owners paradise.
If you hate Weymouth as much you seem to why are you living here?

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maggot, Weymouth says...
6:13pm Tue 2 Dec 08

just to clarify,my comment is not in response to franchise. I think your idea is very positive and a good one.

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Sammy Treadlight, Weymouth says...
6:24pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Well I am with Skiff & co., I am sick of the moaning luddites in this town! Do they not realise the town is in the state it is in, partly due to people having like minded attitudes in the recent past?

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dar, bristol says...
6:29pm Tue 2 Dec 08

well said ian couldnt of put it better my self dont know about maggot thou he must have been asleep when he wrote this? the resort is in a terrible state just walk down st mary st etc and see all the dirt and rubbish blowing around all that for a up and coming olympic town ! i think not? portland have got on and started sorting there act out now lets get on with it ourselves?

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dorsetbeachcomber, Preston says...
6:55pm Tue 2 Dec 08

What "Maggot" and "Mikeman" don't understand is that without investment the resort will eventually die. It will happen slowly. Holiday makers will turn to resorts that offer more up-to-date facilities and local jobs will dwindle. Maybe they have jobs that are secure or don't need employment for themselves or their children.

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Sally1, Weymouth says...
8:28pm Tue 2 Dec 08

I don't mind investment in Weymouth, I just think that the Howard Holdings site looks boring, reminiscent of so many other places, lacks character, imagination, flare etc etc. People won't come to Weymouth because the development is original or because it becomes part of Weymouth's charm. They might come if it is significantly different to Bournemouth, or Torquay or any other southern resort though. So what makes the HH development special?

Big isn't always better either, go to Lyme Regis for the day and see a thriving, redeveloped, affluent, seaside resort, full of independent shops, creative planning and tourists all year round.

So long as Weymouth relies on tourism, the wages will always be low. Cleaners, chambermaids, waitresses are never going to be paid more because HH build some luxury flats. Sustainable development will be the only way to take people out of relative poverty. All we will do is adhere to the usual rich profiting from the poor scenario that the UK has accepted as the norm.

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Skiff, Weymouth says...
8:54pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Interesting point Sally1. I think what makes the HH development special is that they’re here now, and prepared to take the risk and do it. I’m not sure there’s anyone else waiting on the sidelines.

That apart, I’m not entirely clear what you mean – in this context - when you say ‘sustainable development’ is the way to take people out of relative poverty. Weymouth is a seaside resort and has relied on tourism (to whatever extent) ever since George 3rd’s time. What did you have in mind, given our history and heritage?

Btw, I think you’ll find ‘relative poverty’ is present all over the world: by definition it’s not confined to the UK.

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Skiff, Weymouth says...
9:05pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Just spotted dorsetbeachcomber's post and I think he's hit the nail right on the head: "What "Maggot" and "Mikeman" don't understand is that without investment the resort will eventually die. It will happen slowly. Holiday makers will turn to resorts that offer more up-to-date facilities and local jobs will dwindle".
Couldn't have put it better.

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ian paul, Preston says...
10:39pm Tue 2 Dec 08


Maggot,
I fully take on board about how Weymouth is full in summer! We have fantastic beaches which are really well kept. The entertainment through out the summer months is fantastic I love the beach volley ball, kites, cycle displays but we need to keep Weymouth a all year round resort for local business to thrive. The clubs and pubs work hard promoting entertainment for all ages. We have a great reputation for Hen and stag nights. Unfortuntely we are not going to be able to sustain these good british holiday times, which we have enjoyed over the past 40 years, if we don't change.
Here we have a investment company wanting to make our town a leading resort again.
Please understand that more investment will then generate more income for all.
I'm not daft to realize that a lot of the employment will be low paid work, but a lot of good jobs will also come to. The additional marina wiil require more engineers, boat sales, estate agents (sorry to mention them). The constuction industry around here is on its knees this would surely have spin offs to help them.
What I am trying to say is you would never turn a new Jaguar or Aston Martin away for free, Thats what I feel Weymouth is doing bye not welcoming investment in the new harbour scheme.
The council would then be able to spend the extra income from the new council taxes from the new apartments on the old town.
Don't stand still Weymouth it just to old fashioned and negative.

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Sally1, Weymouth says...
11:24pm Tue 2 Dec 08

Why do we have to put all our eggs in one basket?

By investing so heavily in the tourist industry, Weymouth is dependent upon the ability of people to afford holidays, and expensive ones at that when compared to cheap deals abroad. If the council invested in making Weymouth and Portland a great place to live and not just to visit, by rich or poor, we might find people wanting to spend money here all year round.

I wonder what the statistics are for people moving in and out of the area? I have no idea. But it's a thought isn't it?

What happens if we become completely dependent upon second home owners coming here for 2 or 3 weeks of the year to sail their boats during the nice weather, but not spending much cash over the whole year?

I spent most of my teenage and early adult years working in the hotels as a chambermaid etc. Then I left and went to college, now I am back there are no jobs really to speak of. Back to the chamber-maiding then? So my income is so low I can hardly contribute towards the local economy effectively.

This isn't just an argument about development or no development, it's an argument about what sort of development we need. Yes, the building industry will have work for a while and then what?

I understand that a lot of people on this forum believe that HH are our only hope, a bit like the new road issue. But have any alternatives been really explored with regard to the pavilion area? Imaginative ones?

To me it appears that the council lack the imagination and more importantly the drive to really get out there and see what the alternatives could be. I don't know what they are either, but I'm not in local government. I (rightly or wrongly) depend upon my representatives and officers to do this work for me. And I'm afraid our council seem to be one of the most boring, middle of the road, easy life, get rich quick councils around - living in the 20th century not the 21st.

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biggestoaf, Weymouth says...
7:23am Wed 3 Dec 08

I think this is the most intelligent debate I've ever read on the Echo website. Well done everybody!

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mikeman, Portland says...
8:44am Wed 3 Dec 08

I think we need to sit down & decide where Weymouth is going with fresh eyes & ideas radical ideas like sell off the north quay site which would be perfect for a hotel & the council could build new offices in a cheaper location. Let B&Q/Comet move to somewhere like mercery rd & then you could develop the whole station area with something for the tourist & locals alike (skating rink maybe) the opportunities are endless & if the ideas are good the investment will follow. We need a plan for the WHOLE town not just bits & pieces, to use the Pavilion site as a means to an end is a mistake that cannot be reversed. And how many towns would let an opportunity like westway be taken over by bail hostels etc another prime site being lost, another opportunity gone if Weymouth is to prosper we need to think what people want & provide it just having a beach is not good enough anymore.

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dorsetbeachcomber, Preston says...
9:56am Wed 3 Dec 08

We all applaud Mikeman's sentiment and everyone would love to have facilities like a skating-rink in Weymouth. Unfortunately the real world is somewhat different. The council don't have the millions required for all his projects so it's down to private investment. Private investors/developers will only put money in where they see a substantial return for them. In the present financial climate there are very few investors willing to put money into anything. I'm surprised Howard Holdings are still interested in the Pavilion site. If they pull out, make no mistake, no other developer will come rushing forward now. We all have the ideas but where's the cash??

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Atalanta, Weymouth says...
10:04am Wed 3 Dec 08

I agree with Mikeman. Year round entertainment facilities for both visitors and locals are something that not only generate employment, but would make Weymouth a place that people would want to come to. Mikeman, a skating rink would be one such thing and a good one at that. There used to be one, at the rear of the Pavilion, which seems to have been very popular.

We can't rely on good weather, so plenty of indoor choices for all age ranges would provide something to do at any time of the year. Those employed at such venues then spend money at others, the whole local economy would benefit with necessary items to run such a business being locally sourced. Outside these entertainment venues could be gardens and/or summer activities. Well kept gardens and floral stuff, something which I think Weymouth excels at, would give more visual appeal if around the town area, e.g. Westwey Road, the bridge embankment. Yes, get rid of government stuff from the prime sites and make the sites appealing, as after all they are the areas that visitors see. Concrete alone doesn't do it, no matter how nice a new building might look initially, it doesn't last.

The pier, should be something of an attraction in itself, as it used to be. That's not to say that there's no room for commercial enterprise, the whole could be blended quite well, but the balance needs to be right and blend with our lovely Georgian seafront and picturesque harbour.

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Skiff, Weymouth says...
10:18am Wed 3 Dec 08

Yep, I’m with Dorsetbeachcomber on this. There are loads of things we’d like, but right now I’m scratching around trying to figure out where the money’s coming from…

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mikeman, Portland says...
11:20am Wed 3 Dec 08

Lets not be negative about this whether Weymouth lives or dies is up to everybody, why not talk to companies like B&Q and Asda ask them what they would like to do & how we can help them & in turn them help us, it may take a bit of wheeling & dealing but if you don’t ask you don’t get. Both of these companies wanted to expand so help them, if that means moving boundaries then move them there is no sense in W.D.D.C having a say in anything this side of the ridgeway it is costly & has a negative effect on the future of Weymouth to have two planning authorities to cover such a small area its time to think big.

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Genghis, Portland says...
12:21pm Wed 3 Dec 08

Ask Archie wrote:
Nobody should be really surprised by this,HH have been tagging the council along right from the start. I said in comments months & months ago that HH would not produce the goods.
Why didn't you warn us of the Credit Crunch and recession at the same time? Indeed why didn't you warn the Stock Markets then there wouldn't have been a recession.

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franchise, weymouth says...
2:07pm Wed 3 Dec 08

Biggestoaf is right. A very interesting debate. Sally 1 must be congratulated in her posts. It is clear, these posts prove that we are not against change, but what kind of change.The more ideas, the better and those councillors writing on this board should take note.

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Ask Archie, Weymouth says...
2:16pm Wed 3 Dec 08

Genghis wrote:
Ask Archie wrote: Nobody should be really surprised by this,HH have been tagging the council along right from the start. I said in comments months & months ago that HH would not produce the goods.
Why didn't you warn us of the Credit Crunch and recession at the same time? Indeed why didn't you warn the Stock Markets then there wouldn't have been a recession.
Sorry I would have if I could have.My point is HH were due to put in planning BEFORE any crunch hit.They have delayed time and time again.Even when they were granted the extra stories on the plans they still did not submit plans.I'm sorry but I think we should ask why?

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HilaryS, Rodwell says...
5:03pm Wed 3 Dec 08

Genghis: They didn't submit plans because, for one thing, they, and Europa Capital perhaps too, realised months ago that there would very possibly be a costly Public Inquiry, since the plans go against local planning policy. Nothing to do with the credit crunch - they could easily find the money if they wanted - Europa Capital is multi-billion fund. It's the time factor that is the crunch.

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ANGIE:-D, weymouth says...
6:27pm Wed 3 Dec 08

instead of stamping their feet for an extra floor just get on with it!
i do like weymouth the way it is but could do with a facelift,not new flats

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Sally1, Weymouth says...
7:33pm Wed 3 Dec 08

What stands out for me in these debates is the need for people in the borough to have not only the opportunity to have a yes or no say on the issue, but to have the opportunity to hear or contribute towards a real dialogue about ideas that affect the future of the town.

In Germany there is a company called Space Walk (I know that sounds a bit hippy, but hippy they are not) They are made up of architects, town planners and artists and they are brought in for anything up to two years to work with a community in finding creative solutions to urban regeneration schemes. They work across all sections of the community, looking at needs and wants, realistic and idealistic and over time they draw together ideas, try some of them out and then contribute their outcomes and findings towards the development. Some of the outcomes are radical, some are not at all, but they at least represent a sense of community ownership and pride. This in turn is reflected in the final decision process. Not all the outcomes cost huges somes of money, but they do have an effect on the development. A good example I can think of is a an area that was going to be designated for parking (part of a much bigger regeneration scheme) instead became a community garden. Simple, but effective use of space in an urban environment, used by all generations.

What interests me, is the collaboration of town-planners, architects and artists, so those who feel that the artists might be unrealistic have their concerns balanced by the rational work of the town planners; those who feel the town planners are not considering aesthetics have this balanced by the work of the artists.

And of equal importance is the time that is given to the process, enabling real dialogue to take place and giving time to finding realisitic solututions.

Rome wasn't built in day.

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REVIEW: Geoff Sparrow, investment director for Howard Holdings REVIEW: Geoff Sparrow, investment director for Howard Holdings

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