Schools brace for closures as teachers plan strike

Dorset Echo: Geoff Cooke Geoff Cooke

TEACHERS are set to strike, sparking school closures across Dorset.

The National Union of Teachers (NUT) has announced a proposed one-day strike on Wednesday March 26, which could see disruption at primary and secondary schools in the area.

The strike comes amid an ongoing row about pensions, terms and conditions and teachers’ concern for the education system in general.

Union bosses want to speak to Secretary of State Michael Gove about their concerns and say he has made no significant movement to meet them face-to-face.

Following a strike in October, a further strike in February was called off after it was hoped that talks would take place.

The planned strike next week could still be called off if there is movement on the issues.

Dorset secretary for the NUT, Geoff Cooke, said there had been talks but nothing significant.

He said: “No actual face-to-face discussion about what needs to change in order to get the education system back on track from our perspective.”

He added: “We wanted to talk to him at a national level about the changes he is proposing and about the way education in the country is going.”

He said that the ball was in Mr Gove’s court and had been since last summer.

Teachers are concerned about the way the education system was going, Mr Cooke said, especially about the high number of young teachers leaving the profession after only a few years.

Mr Cooke said that the strike action was a ‘last resort’ and no teacher wanted to have to take the action. He said: “They don’t want to do it at all. It’s against their instincts to affect parents or children.”

If Mr Gove did agree to sit down with teachers the strike could be called off within 24 hours, Mr Cooke said.

A spokesman for Dorset County Council said they are urging schools to stay open where possible, during potential industrial action.

They added that school transport should run as normal where schools are open, and with modified services in areas affected by a school closure.

Mark Loveys, lead advisor for school improvement with the county council said: “We are encouraging schools to stay open, where it is feasible and poses no risk to pupils as a result.

“However, the final decision as to whether a school remains open, closed or partially closed lies with the headteacher and the chairman of governors.

“All schools have been asked to give parents, school transport and pupils as much notice as possible.”

Comments (59)

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5:39am Wed 19 Mar 14

societies-a-joke says...

Yet you can't take you children away during term what an absolute joke considering the community pays for the school aswel :-/ no wonder we have a failing school system if they're teachers will do anything for a day off
Yet you can't take you children away during term what an absolute joke considering the community pays for the school aswel :-/ no wonder we have a failing school system if they're teachers will do anything for a day off societies-a-joke
  • Score: 12

6:44am Wed 19 Mar 14

Bert Fry says...

I think you'll find its the government that sets the rules on absenteeism, not teachers or even the school.
I think you'll find its the government that sets the rules on absenteeism, not teachers or even the school. Bert Fry
  • Score: 9

7:40am Wed 19 Mar 14

Jenny Barnes says...

Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday Jenny Barnes
  • Score: 11

9:31am Wed 19 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

societies-a-joke wrote:
Yet you can't take you children away during term what an absolute joke considering the community pays for the school aswel :-/ no wonder we have a failing school system if they're teachers will do anything for a day off
is that the teachers fault, that parents get fined?

"educate yourself before you wreck yourself"
[quote][p][bold]societies-a-joke[/bold] wrote: Yet you can't take you children away during term what an absolute joke considering the community pays for the school aswel :-/ no wonder we have a failing school system if they're teachers will do anything for a day off[/p][/quote]is that the teachers fault, that parents get fined? "educate yourself before you wreck yourself" elloello1980
  • Score: 1

9:32am Wed 19 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

Jenny Barnes wrote:
Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment

It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
[quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top. elloello1980
  • Score: 3

11:01am Wed 19 Mar 14

Sigurd Hoberth says...

Meanwhile we are having to import Chinese maths teachers because the massively feminised education in Britain has got so dumbed down as to be humiliating for Britain.
Meanwhile we are having to import Chinese maths teachers because the massively feminised education in Britain has got so dumbed down as to be humiliating for Britain. Sigurd Hoberth
  • Score: 10

12:56pm Wed 19 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences...

One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person
judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences... One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person elloello1980
  • Score: 3

1:06pm Wed 19 Mar 14

woodsedge says...

elloello1980 wrote:
judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences...

One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person
Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place!
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences... One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person[/p][/quote]Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place! woodsedge
  • Score: 5

1:23pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Schrodinger's Cat says...

Does anyone know of any parent in this area who has been fined for taking their child out of school for a holiday?
Does anyone know of any parent in this area who has been fined for taking their child out of school for a holiday? Schrodinger's Cat
  • Score: 7

3:22pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Laadeeda says...

Schrodinger's Cat wrote:
Does anyone know of any parent in this area who has been fined for taking their child out of school for a holiday?
In answer to your question - Yes!

As for the strike, what with all the holidays, training days will another day not teaching matter!
[quote][p][bold]Schrodinger's Cat[/bold] wrote: Does anyone know of any parent in this area who has been fined for taking their child out of school for a holiday?[/p][/quote]In answer to your question - Yes! As for the strike, what with all the holidays, training days will another day not teaching matter! Laadeeda
  • Score: -1

3:25pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jjlad2 says...

Yes, i know someone who did get fined £70, but actually saved £240 as the cost of the Holiday was dearer in School Holidays, as he said, result. some may say the child now needs to catch up a week as he is behind, but not so, as with 2 periods of gym, 1 day teacher training, 2 free periods he was only 2 days behind, and im sure that is not going to effect his whole future given the average schooling is approx 12yrs.
Yes, i know someone who did get fined £70, but actually saved £240 as the cost of the Holiday was dearer in School Holidays, as he said, result. some may say the child now needs to catch up a week as he is behind, but not so, as with 2 periods of gym, 1 day teacher training, 2 free periods he was only 2 days behind, and im sure that is not going to effect his whole future given the average schooling is approx 12yrs. jjlad2
  • Score: 8

6:03pm Wed 19 Mar 14

BossDog says...

It is noteworthy that those correspondents on this page with the worst grammar and least ability to pursue a logical argument are those that support the teachers least. Had they paid more attention in school, they might have a better understanding of the issues that teachers face and little more respect for the profession as a whole.
It is noteworthy that those correspondents on this page with the worst grammar and least ability to pursue a logical argument are those that support the teachers least. Had they paid more attention in school, they might have a better understanding of the issues that teachers face and little more respect for the profession as a whole. BossDog
  • Score: 13

6:21pm Wed 19 Mar 14

siratb says...

I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about taking the kids out of school term time for a few days at the start or end of a school holiday. The way I view it is that will get a much better "life" education by going on a holiday to South America to see their family than they will get at school.

I have my own views on schools these days, and the way they meet their targets, but maybe that is for another day.
I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about taking the kids out of school term time for a few days at the start or end of a school holiday. The way I view it is that will get a much better "life" education by going on a holiday to South America to see their family than they will get at school. I have my own views on schools these days, and the way they meet their targets, but maybe that is for another day. siratb
  • Score: 5

7:33pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Tinker2 says...

Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs. Tinker2
  • Score: 12

12:06am Thu 20 Mar 14

Schrodinger's Cat says...

jjlad2 and laadeeda - could you tell me which school(s) imposed the fines? I genuinely haven't heard of any schools in this area doing so. I would be very interested to know if any of them are.
jjlad2 and laadeeda - could you tell me which school(s) imposed the fines? I genuinely haven't heard of any schools in this area doing so. I would be very interested to know if any of them are. Schrodinger's Cat
  • Score: 4

6:29am Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote:
Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment

It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not.
Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better... Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 7

6:37am Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
[quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line... Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 23

7:20am Thu 20 Mar 14

southwellman says...

"Mr Cooke said that the strike action was a ‘last resort’ and no teacher wanted to have to take the action. He said: “They don’t want to do it at all. It’s against their instincts to affect parents or children.”
How many strikes have the teachers had now?
"Mr Cooke said that the strike action was a ‘last resort’ and no teacher wanted to have to take the action. He said: “They don’t want to do it at all. It’s against their instincts to affect parents or children.” How many strikes have the teachers had now? southwellman
  • Score: 8

7:21am Thu 20 Mar 14

bigfatlad says...

I'd like to take these teachers out on a building site with me and see how long they'd last on a real job ....
I'd like to take these teachers out on a building site with me and see how long they'd last on a real job .... bigfatlad
  • Score: 7

8:21am Thu 20 Mar 14

woodsedge says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
I suggest you research a topic before hitting the send button. That way you would not be making incorrect statements.
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]I suggest you research a topic before hitting the send button. That way you would not be making incorrect statements. woodsedge
  • Score: -11

8:39am Thu 20 Mar 14

IslandJim1 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck? IslandJim1
  • Score: 5

8:57am Thu 20 Mar 14

woodsedge says...

bigfatlad wrote:
I'd like to take these teachers out on a building site with me and see how long they'd last on a real job ....
I'd like to take you into a inner city classroom of 35 teenagers and see house long you would last in a real job.....
[quote][p][bold]bigfatlad[/bold] wrote: I'd like to take these teachers out on a building site with me and see how long they'd last on a real job ....[/p][/quote]I'd like to take you into a inner city classroom of 35 teenagers and see house long you would last in a real job..... woodsedge
  • Score: 5

11:16am Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

woodsedge wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
I suggest you research a topic before hitting the send button. That way you would not be making incorrect statements.
I sat with a couple of teachers from RMS Portland outside a local well known pub recently. They didn't know who I was - its was a random meeting and chat by happenstance. They were not candid in saying that they though the responsibility of teaching and a childs educational welfare was the remit of the parents. Well - to be fair one did more than the other. The other quickly backtracked when he realised I might be critical of that.
I know some very good teachers. My feeling is they would walk right into a job in the private sector.
Your argument works for those good teachers I might know, and I might agree with you - but saying I might like to think about what Im saying is a bit flippant. How would you suggest we deal with bad teachers? because there are a lot in my opinion and they are covered by the antique labour laws used by the unions. Its all eye wash - the public knows it, the teachers know it in their heart of hearts. Only the unions don't because its their job not to.
[quote][p][bold]woodsedge[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]I suggest you research a topic before hitting the send button. That way you would not be making incorrect statements.[/p][/quote]I sat with a couple of teachers from RMS Portland outside a local well known pub recently. They didn't know who I was - its was a random meeting and chat by happenstance. They were not candid in saying that they though the responsibility of teaching and a childs educational welfare was the remit of the parents. Well - to be fair one did more than the other. The other quickly backtracked when he realised I might be critical of that. I know some very good teachers. My feeling is they would walk right into a job in the private sector. Your argument works for those good teachers I might know, and I might agree with you - but saying I might like to think about what Im saying is a bit flippant. How would you suggest we deal with bad teachers? because there are a lot in my opinion and they are covered by the antique labour laws used by the unions. Its all eye wash - the public knows it, the teachers know it in their heart of hearts. Only the unions don't because its their job not to. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 2

11:23am Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
[quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 9

11:58am Thu 20 Mar 14

IslandJim1 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work! IslandJim1
  • Score: -7

12:03pm Thu 20 Mar 14

livid99 says...

Rather than blaming the teachers, ALL criticism should be aimed at the odious twunt Micheal Gove. Letting a idology-driven obnoxious Tory loose to f*** up the education of our children is the best reason to vote him and his lot out at the next election.
Rather than blaming the teachers, ALL criticism should be aimed at the odious twunt Micheal Gove. Letting a idology-driven obnoxious Tory loose to f*** up the education of our children is the best reason to vote him and his lot out at the next election. livid99
  • Score: 3

12:55pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay.
Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.
[quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work![/p][/quote]Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 6

1:12pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?" Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 6

1:35pm Thu 20 Mar 14

IslandJim1 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay.
Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.
I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there.
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work![/p][/quote]Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.[/p][/quote]I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there. IslandJim1
  • Score: -8

1:37pm Thu 20 Mar 14

IslandJim1 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You reap what you sow"
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: "If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"[/p][/quote]"You reap what you sow" IslandJim1
  • Score: 1

2:01pm Thu 20 Mar 14

livid99 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
...and if you are vegetarian ??? Then what ?
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: "If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"[/p][/quote]...and if you are vegetarian ??? Then what ? livid99
  • Score: -1

2:38pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay.
Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.
I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there.
I was following you until the last line. You've rubbished your whole argument.
There is no such thing as an easy job. There might be a job in which you exhibit some of the characteristics you are talking about shortly before you get sacked.
If I may quote - Education, education, education. Great if your going to university. Not so good otherwise. You cannot raise a family on Algebra or knowing who Paris was.
If those leaving school today want to overturn the establishment that has let them down - I will wish them luck...
[quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work![/p][/quote]Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.[/p][/quote]I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there.[/p][/quote]I was following you until the last line. You've rubbished your whole argument. There is no such thing as an easy job. There might be a job in which you exhibit some of the characteristics you are talking about shortly before you get sacked. If I may quote - Education, education, education. Great if your going to university. Not so good otherwise. You cannot raise a family on Algebra or knowing who Paris was. If those leaving school today want to overturn the establishment that has let them down - I will wish them luck... Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 6

3:05pm Thu 20 Mar 14

IslandJim1 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote:
Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers.
Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's?
They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers.
Its the crap ones I don't like.
If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay.
Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.
I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there.
I was following you until the last line. You've rubbished your whole argument.
There is no such thing as an easy job. There might be a job in which you exhibit some of the characteristics you are talking about shortly before you get sacked.
If I may quote - Education, education, education. Great if your going to university. Not so good otherwise. You cannot raise a family on Algebra or knowing who Paris was.
If those leaving school today want to overturn the establishment that has let them down - I will wish them luck...
Again I don't follow your disjointed and meandering train of thought on the subject? Why have I rubbished my argument based on a salary comparison?
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work![/p][/quote]Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.[/p][/quote]I'm struggling to follow your argument, in one breath you say they have it easy, in another you want to pay them double? I think we're agreeing on the fact there are good and bad teacher's, and that its bad ones that are probably lobbying there unions to take action. I'm definitely not in agreement that a teacher's job is comparatively easy, least of all to the low skill based, no pressure, no accountability, day by day professions that you list. Again may I point out currently a teacher's pension payments accounts for nearly 10% of there net earning, thats ALOT more than any standard pension scheme. You may want to check your working on the holiday, 13 out of 54 is one quarter not one third, which pro rata still means there salary comes about average for a decent graduate job even though they've done more work to get there.[/p][/quote]I was following you until the last line. You've rubbished your whole argument. There is no such thing as an easy job. There might be a job in which you exhibit some of the characteristics you are talking about shortly before you get sacked. If I may quote - Education, education, education. Great if your going to university. Not so good otherwise. You cannot raise a family on Algebra or knowing who Paris was. If those leaving school today want to overturn the establishment that has let them down - I will wish them luck...[/p][/quote]Again I don't follow your disjointed and meandering train of thought on the subject? Why have I rubbished my argument based on a salary comparison? IslandJim1
  • Score: -6

3:15pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Ageed / not agreed says...

livid99 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
...and if you are vegetarian ??? Then what ?
you eat grass
[quote][p][bold]livid99[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: "If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"[/p][/quote]...and if you are vegetarian ??? Then what ?[/p][/quote]you eat grass Ageed / not agreed
  • Score: 4

3:25pm Thu 20 Mar 14

February1948 says...

Although I would not ever wish to be a teacher, I would like to add my bit to this thread! I have 4 grown-up children, all doing very well as a result of sacrifices made to get them through private school until they went to a brilliant secondary school locally. I am also a manager responsible for a team of people in a stressful job and it irks me to say that many of the younger ones can barely put a CV together or have useful social skills. What exactly is it that some teachers (mainly the NUT-ers) are frightened of with Michael Gove's struggle to bring our children up to the standards the country enjoyed before various governments started messing about with the system back in, I think, the late 1960s? Is it because he wants to bring in people to teach who do not have PGCE but who have fantastic expertise in their subject (mainly engineering, maths and other important subjects), or, as is more likely, the fact that the current and previous generation of teachers were so badly taught themselves that through no fault of their own they haven't the skills to teach? Going on strike just makes them go down even further in the public's estimation and if they wish to be viewed as being on a par with other professionals such as doctors and lawyers, then they should grow up and join the real world. Hundreds of thousands of parents agree with Mr. Gove, whatever their politics and all they want is to see their children thrive in an ever-competitive (there's a bad word these days) world. It makes me ashamed to see us so far down in the educational stakes now and I despair for the future of this once-great country, all because of lack of good educational opportunities.
Although I would not ever wish to be a teacher, I would like to add my bit to this thread! I have 4 grown-up children, all doing very well as a result of sacrifices made to get them through private school until they went to a brilliant secondary school locally. I am also a manager responsible for a team of people in a stressful job and it irks me to say that many of the younger ones can barely put a CV together or have useful social skills. What exactly is it that some teachers (mainly the NUT-ers) are frightened of with Michael Gove's struggle to bring our children up to the standards the country enjoyed before various governments started messing about with the system back in, I think, the late 1960s? Is it because he wants to bring in people to teach who do not have PGCE but who have fantastic expertise in their subject (mainly engineering, maths and other important subjects), or, as is more likely, the fact that the current and previous generation of teachers were so badly taught themselves that through no fault of their own they haven't the skills to teach? Going on strike just makes them go down even further in the public's estimation and if they wish to be viewed as being on a par with other professionals such as doctors and lawyers, then they should grow up and join the real world. Hundreds of thousands of parents agree with Mr. Gove, whatever their politics and all they want is to see their children thrive in an ever-competitive (there's a bad word these days) world. It makes me ashamed to see us so far down in the educational stakes now and I despair for the future of this once-great country, all because of lack of good educational opportunities. February1948
  • Score: 9

4:13pm Thu 20 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...
Yes, frontline.

The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike).

There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis.

Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...[/p][/quote]Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive? elloello1980
  • Score: -5

4:17pm Thu 20 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
IslandJim1 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
Tinker2 wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.
Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...
You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?
I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.
Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work!
Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.
did those hairdressers and builders spend 6 years+ in further education?

In an ideal world, you get what you put in. but not for teachers, it seems
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IslandJim1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tinker2[/bold] wrote: Teachers deserve a voice and a whole lot of respect for doing a difficult job where politicians repeatedly make spurious changes and appear to have more concern about results on paper than they do about the children and the teachers. Let us give some credit to the teachers who are at the coal face, in knowing what is needed to make things work and to help them in their stressful jobs.[/p][/quote]Again "coal face"? - I'm sorry, working in a classroom and getting well over £30k for working two thirds of the working mans year, and receiving a massive pension at the end of their working life is not "working at the coal face". Working in a COOP branch for minimum wage is the coal face, working as a cleaner in a local hotel is the coal face, working in a trawler is the coal face. If I see any more comments on here trying to liken teachers to coal miners I'm going to puke. They have a privileged position with the public and they are in a very real danger of stepping over the line...[/p][/quote]You might want to do a bit more resurch on the subject, like most negative comments on here I can only assume that you don't actually know any teacher's? They don't earn £30,000, starting wage in closer to £20,000. This is after a mandatory 6 years of higher education including a degree and PGCE, your COOP worker requires what, afew NVQ's, hardly a comparison. Your the one who is unhappy about teachers being likened to coal miners. Yet you think someone who stacks shelf's and works a checkout is a fare comparison to someone responsible for the education, mental and social well-being and health & safety of 100's of children on a daily basis?. Most teachers (not all) work more hr's than the average person, when factoring in before school, lunchtime & after school clubs, marking, lesson planning ext, a good teacher dosen't just tip up at 9.00 and leave at 3.30! This amazing pension, you mean the one that they have to PAY a large amount of there salary into during there working life? As for there privileged position, I wouldn't call dealing with lazy and sometimes abusive teenagers on a daily basis and on occasion there equal abusive parents who's child can do no wrong privileged. Which brings be onto the union, teachers HAVE to be a member of a union to protect them against the aforementioned children and parents, who's sometimes malicious and calculated act's and lies can easily end the career of a teacher in one foul swoop, ending what they love doing, and what they've spent 6 years and quite possibly the best part of £30,000 achieving! If they got it so good, why aren't you a teacher, why isn't the education sector saturated with these people who you insist are making an easy buck?[/p][/quote]I seem to be gravitating towards knowing a lot of teachers. Not particularly my choice - or maybe it is subconsciously. Anyway - I'm very supportive of good teachers. Its the crap ones I don't like. If teachers would agree to reform of the profession - which hinges around performance related pay, which most of the country deals with day in day out, we could all move on. I don't see good teachers worrying about performance testing, why would they? Most working people face that and don't worry? why are the teachers any different? The unions are harbouring lazy no good teachers that should be doing something else and not wasting everyone else's time and money.[/p][/quote]Well why didn't you start your debate with the above, rather then launching into a non-fact base and ill conceived rant, generalising all teachers. I agree that there are rubbish teachers out there, and an equal amount of teacher just waiting for there pensions to kick in, who training and methods have been outdated and infective for at least a decade. I'm sure these people will try and block any type of performance related pay for there own personal gain. But again we can not fairly compare performance related pay that you might receive as an individual or department against someone who's performance is measured against the achievement of teenagers, who may or may not want to learn, who may or may not receive support from parents and have good attendance, who may or may not even be in the right type of school for there needs because of the insistence of parents. So i think you will find that performance pay does worry the majority of teachers, good and bad, not all of them are kicking up a fuss though, must are just getting on it. Its the union calling the shots, because of crap government guidance, so don't blast the people in the class doing the work![/p][/quote]Its not a rant - the teachers have it comparatively easy. Ask your hairdresser or builder whether they would like a pension which they don't have to pay most of their earnings into, or if they would like to work two thirds of the year on full pay. Thats all good for me with good teachers. Id pay them double. But I want the crap ones out.[/p][/quote]did those hairdressers and builders spend 6 years+ in further education? In an ideal world, you get what you put in. but not for teachers, it seems elloello1980
  • Score: 0

4:31pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Cromy says...

I have a lot of respect for teachers, they perform a valuable service that affects the future generation in no way any other group could. Striking doesn't seem to effect the policy makers and I haven't seen a u-turn in response to a striking action.

With regards to salaries, I found some interesting stats, "The latest Office for National Statistics data showed public sector workers are paid on average 14.5% more than those in the private sector.", also £7.5Bn of our taxes each year are spent on a separate Teachers Pension Scheme (both from the Guardian Data Blog). About 438,000 teachers in the UK, so about £17K pension on top of the state pension - sounds like a good deal to me.
I have a lot of respect for teachers, they perform a valuable service that affects the future generation in no way any other group could. Striking doesn't seem to effect the policy makers and I haven't seen a u-turn in response to a striking action. With regards to salaries, I found some interesting stats, "The latest Office for National Statistics data showed public sector workers are paid on average 14.5% more than those in the private sector.", also £7.5Bn of our taxes each year are spent on a separate Teachers Pension Scheme (both from the Guardian Data Blog). About 438,000 teachers in the UK, so about £17K pension on top of the state pension - sounds like a good deal to me. Cromy
  • Score: 4

4:43pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

elloello1980 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...
Yes, frontline.

The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike).

There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis.

Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?
The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick.
This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not.
Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on.
You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy.
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...[/p][/quote]Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?[/p][/quote]The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick. This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not. Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on. You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 8

5:43pm Thu 20 Mar 14

AndyBlackwood says...

Where is your evidence for your claim that "the profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters"? I wonder whether you go in to schools on a regular basis and witness this laziness and under performance? The school I work in is packed with many extraordinarily talented teachers who work very hard to provide an excellent education for the students. We already face scrutiny over quality and results - our teaching is observed by managers on a regular basis as well as by OFSTED and results are constantly analysed.
Where is your evidence for your claim that "the profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters"? I wonder whether you go in to schools on a regular basis and witness this laziness and under performance? The school I work in is packed with many extraordinarily talented teachers who work very hard to provide an excellent education for the students. We already face scrutiny over quality and results - our teaching is observed by managers on a regular basis as well as by OFSTED and results are constantly analysed. AndyBlackwood
  • Score: -7

6:01pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

AndyBlackwood wrote:
Where is your evidence for your claim that "the profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters"? I wonder whether you go in to schools on a regular basis and witness this laziness and under performance? The school I work in is packed with many extraordinarily talented teachers who work very hard to provide an excellent education for the students. We already face scrutiny over quality and results - our teaching is observed by managers on a regular basis as well as by OFSTED and results are constantly analysed.
My complaint is not with good teachers.
My evidence is gained from going to schools and having known teachers, and those that have had to work with teachers. If I didn't know some I would have to say my view would be a lot more negative.
My work is scrutinised on an hour by hour basis. I could face redundancy at a moments notice. My manager who is also my boss can and does give me a boll*cking on a regular basis and yes - its very stressful.
I don't have a guaranteed pension and my holiday is unpaid and needs to be planned months and months in advance.
Im sure this is pretty common for many private sector workers.
Like I say I don't resent the good conditions and pay for teachers - I resent that the unions want to exclude any type of deadwood removal. Its annoying and not only that there is not the slightest chance the government will cave in to strikes, so the public will pay. Exactly what happened to the miners. Its sad things have to change, but eventually they do. trying to prevent it is like trying to stop the tide coming in.
[quote][p][bold]AndyBlackwood[/bold] wrote: Where is your evidence for your claim that "the profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters"? I wonder whether you go in to schools on a regular basis and witness this laziness and under performance? The school I work in is packed with many extraordinarily talented teachers who work very hard to provide an excellent education for the students. We already face scrutiny over quality and results - our teaching is observed by managers on a regular basis as well as by OFSTED and results are constantly analysed.[/p][/quote]My complaint is not with good teachers. My evidence is gained from going to schools and having known teachers, and those that have had to work with teachers. If I didn't know some I would have to say my view would be a lot more negative. My work is scrutinised on an hour by hour basis. I could face redundancy at a moments notice. My manager who is also my boss can and does give me a boll*cking on a regular basis and yes - its very stressful. I don't have a guaranteed pension and my holiday is unpaid and needs to be planned months and months in advance. Im sure this is pretty common for many private sector workers. Like I say I don't resent the good conditions and pay for teachers - I resent that the unions want to exclude any type of deadwood removal. Its annoying and not only that there is not the slightest chance the government will cave in to strikes, so the public will pay. Exactly what happened to the miners. Its sad things have to change, but eventually they do. trying to prevent it is like trying to stop the tide coming in. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 5

6:09pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Bert Fry says...

Cromy wrote:
I have a lot of respect for teachers, they perform a valuable service that affects the future generation in no way any other group could. Striking doesn't seem to effect the policy makers and I haven't seen a u-turn in response to a striking action.

With regards to salaries, I found some interesting stats, "The latest Office for National Statistics data showed public sector workers are paid on average 14.5% more than those in the private sector.", also £7.5Bn of our taxes each year are spent on a separate Teachers Pension Scheme (both from the Guardian Data Blog). About 438,000 teachers in the UK, so about £17K pension on top of the state pension - sounds like a good deal to me.
It's a pity you didn't add the caveat that the ONS themselves put on these figures;
"The public and private sector have work forces which are composed quite differently. Consequently differences in gross weekly earnings do not reveal differences in different rates of pay for comparable jobs. For example, many of the lowest paid occupations, such as bar and restaurant staff, hairdressers,element
ary sales occupations and cashiers, exist primarily in the private sector,while there are a larger proportion of graduate level and professional occupations in the public sector".

For a more meaningful comparison with the private sector, what does a teacher in a public school, with lower class sizes and longer holidays, get?
[quote][p][bold]Cromy[/bold] wrote: I have a lot of respect for teachers, they perform a valuable service that affects the future generation in no way any other group could. Striking doesn't seem to effect the policy makers and I haven't seen a u-turn in response to a striking action. With regards to salaries, I found some interesting stats, "The latest Office for National Statistics data showed public sector workers are paid on average 14.5% more than those in the private sector.", also £7.5Bn of our taxes each year are spent on a separate Teachers Pension Scheme (both from the Guardian Data Blog). About 438,000 teachers in the UK, so about £17K pension on top of the state pension - sounds like a good deal to me.[/p][/quote]It's a pity you didn't add the caveat that the ONS themselves put on these figures; "The public and private sector have work forces which are composed quite differently. Consequently differences in gross weekly earnings do not reveal differences in different rates of pay for comparable jobs. For example, many of the lowest paid occupations, such as bar and restaurant staff, hairdressers,element ary sales occupations and cashiers, exist primarily in the private sector,while there are a larger proportion of graduate level and professional occupations in the public sector". For a more meaningful comparison with the private sector, what does a teacher in a public school, with lower class sizes and longer holidays, get? Bert Fry
  • Score: -2

6:14pm Thu 20 Mar 14

AndyBlackwood says...

I feel comparisons between the public and private sectors are fairly pointless as there are advantages and disadvantages in both. It's too simplistic to say life is harder for either the public sector or the private sector - it's simply different work.
My issue was with your use of the phrase "riddled with under performing lazy coasters" which I took to mean that you believe there are lots of poorly performing and lazy teachers. I do not pretend that all teachers are excellent but, in my experience, many are. I see no evidence at all of laziness in the teaching profession.
I think there is a bigger problem facing the teaching profession than how to remove the "deadwood" which is how to stop excellent teachers being driven out of the profession by workload, stress, paperwork etc
I feel comparisons between the public and private sectors are fairly pointless as there are advantages and disadvantages in both. It's too simplistic to say life is harder for either the public sector or the private sector - it's simply different work. My issue was with your use of the phrase "riddled with under performing lazy coasters" which I took to mean that you believe there are lots of poorly performing and lazy teachers. I do not pretend that all teachers are excellent but, in my experience, many are. I see no evidence at all of laziness in the teaching profession. I think there is a bigger problem facing the teaching profession than how to remove the "deadwood" which is how to stop excellent teachers being driven out of the profession by workload, stress, paperwork etc AndyBlackwood
  • Score: -5

10:09pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Laadeeda says...

Schrodinger's Cat wrote:
jjlad2 and laadeeda - could you tell me which school(s) imposed the fines? I genuinely haven't heard of any schools in this area doing so. I would be very interested to know if any of them are.
No idea which school. It is a Weymouth school. I remember my mate having a serious rant about it at work. Wouldn't have been Budmouth as his boys weren't old enough.

Sorry!
[quote][p][bold]Schrodinger's Cat[/bold] wrote: jjlad2 and laadeeda - could you tell me which school(s) imposed the fines? I genuinely haven't heard of any schools in this area doing so. I would be very interested to know if any of them are.[/p][/quote]No idea which school. It is a Weymouth school. I remember my mate having a serious rant about it at work. Wouldn't have been Budmouth as his boys weren't old enough. Sorry! Laadeeda
  • Score: 0

8:27am Fri 21 Mar 14

cj07589 says...

woodsedge wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences...

One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person
Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place!
Your correct and your wrong too, the underlining problem is the 'people', 'electorate' or 'workers' as you refer vote for the same political muppets time after time. So you could argue they deserve the Government and policies they get, there is some truth in the statement 'never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate' I wish it were not so, but based on the current cyclic political shambles it appears to be a well foundered statement clearly exacerbated by the standard of the state education being dished out.
[quote][p][bold]woodsedge[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences... One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person[/p][/quote]Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place![/p][/quote]Your correct and your wrong too, the underlining problem is the 'people', 'electorate' or 'workers' as you refer vote for the same political muppets time after time. So you could argue they deserve the Government and policies they get, there is some truth in the statement 'never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate' I wish it were not so, but based on the current cyclic political shambles it appears to be a well foundered statement clearly exacerbated by the standard of the state education being dished out. cj07589
  • Score: 0

9:37am Fri 21 Mar 14

elloello1980 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...
Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?
The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick. This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not. Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on. You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy.
I assume you did not carry on with your studies, and went straight into a 'real job'.

I chose my career wisely, and enjoy steak with my carrot. but this follows years of staying away from temptations and having my head stuck in a book.

And again, the fact there is deadwood teachers is not the fault of all teachers. The system should be able to brush out or bring up those slacking. but let's hate on the frontline ;)
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...[/p][/quote]Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?[/p][/quote]The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick. This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not. Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on. You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy.[/p][/quote]I assume you did not carry on with your studies, and went straight into a 'real job'. I chose my career wisely, and enjoy steak with my carrot. but this follows years of staying away from temptations and having my head stuck in a book. And again, the fact there is deadwood teachers is not the fault of all teachers. The system should be able to brush out or bring up those slacking. but let's hate on the frontline ;) elloello1980
  • Score: 0

10:46am Fri 21 Mar 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

elloello1980 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...
Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?
The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick. This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not. Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on. You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy.
I assume you did not carry on with your studies, and went straight into a 'real job'.

I chose my career wisely, and enjoy steak with my carrot. but this follows years of staying away from temptations and having my head stuck in a book.

And again, the fact there is deadwood teachers is not the fault of all teachers. The system should be able to brush out or bring up those slacking. but let's hate on the frontline ;)
Whether Im educated or not is really irrelevant.
What is relevant and most distressing to me is that there is a whole generation of kids here in W&P as well as further afield in West Dorset that will be wondering what the hell they are going to do with their lives. Managing to get a 20k pa job around here is a miracle. The only prospect is to go the a city where you can actually earn a wage, have a family and create a life.
The teachers didn't strike when I was at school, and things were bad then - but not on a par with what they are now. If I were at school and I saw the teachers striking Id be thinking that it was all a bit of a joke. It isn't so much pay that concerns me its the fact that they appear to want to avoid change, and without change we are really dead. We may as well phone the cemetery now...
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]'Frontline' ? - What you say might be appropriate for a miner, or a stevedore. Teachers earn at least - at least half as much again as someone lucky enough around here to have a decent career job, let's not make out they are the oppressed proletariate because they are not. Teachers deserve my sympathy yes. What they will get is my anger for taking advantage of a public trust. It's not on and the sooner the NUT realise that strike action is hurting parents and pupils not the government the better...[/p][/quote]Yes, frontline. The teachers operate based on the decisions that are out of their hands (unless they take action. i.e. strike). There's enough documentaries out there to show how difficult many teachers have it. I for one could not handle being spoken to like crap by yoots on a daily basis. Teachers are underpaid, even if they were on 30K (which you're wrong about). 30K is only slightly above the average. so do we expect to have the best of teachers with that kind of incentive?[/p][/quote]The unions expect it to all be carrot whilst the rest of us face carrot and stick. This argument of expecting to attract the best with good pay is only one side of the story. A profession attracts the best by having a bar. Those not up to it don't get in. At the moment, that bar simply seems to be getting a degree and doing a bit of training. In 1964 that worked. In 2014 it does not. Teachers need to understand that the public are their client - not whoever is in No10. I feel sorry for those good teachers - but I think its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The profession is currently riddled with under performing, lazy coasters and worse and without some reform its only going to fester on. You want to strike for more pay, great, but don't tell me you don't want to reform the profession or face scrutiny over quality or results because that sounds like the teachers want unbridled pay, and that is sheer fantasy.[/p][/quote]I assume you did not carry on with your studies, and went straight into a 'real job'. I chose my career wisely, and enjoy steak with my carrot. but this follows years of staying away from temptations and having my head stuck in a book. And again, the fact there is deadwood teachers is not the fault of all teachers. The system should be able to brush out or bring up those slacking. but let's hate on the frontline ;)[/p][/quote]Whether Im educated or not is really irrelevant. What is relevant and most distressing to me is that there is a whole generation of kids here in W&P as well as further afield in West Dorset that will be wondering what the hell they are going to do with their lives. Managing to get a 20k pa job around here is a miracle. The only prospect is to go the a city where you can actually earn a wage, have a family and create a life. The teachers didn't strike when I was at school, and things were bad then - but not on a par with what they are now. If I were at school and I saw the teachers striking Id be thinking that it was all a bit of a joke. It isn't so much pay that concerns me its the fact that they appear to want to avoid change, and without change we are really dead. We may as well phone the cemetery now... Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 0

3:32pm Fri 21 Mar 14

AndyBlackwood says...

I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?
I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery? AndyBlackwood
  • Score: -7

10:40pm Fri 21 Mar 14

JamesYoung says...

AndyBlackwood wrote:
I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?
While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me.
The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering.
Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension).
We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille.
[quote][p][bold]AndyBlackwood[/bold] wrote: I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?[/p][/quote]While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me. The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering. Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension). We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille. JamesYoung
  • Score: 2

11:28pm Fri 21 Mar 14

AndyBlackwood says...

Having read many of your posts in the past James I never had you down as a revolutionary!
I hadn't intended to imply that teachers are a special case. I'm very aware that many workers are under a lot of pressure and stress, and some are in a worse situation than teachers. I was trying to respond to the suggestion that teachers are little more than lazy, useless and resistant to change when, in my experience, the vast majority are the complete opposite. I get very angry about the effect of Gove's reforms and the damage he is inflicting. It seems highly likely that the teachers pension scheme is affordable - the government refuses to make the figures public to prove otherwise. I may be stretching a point by suggesting that more teachers will die on the job - only time will tell. However I am convinced that many more teachers (and builders, fire officers, bus drivers etc) will have to stop working early on health grounds which, in the end, will prove to be more expensive to the exchequer.
I'm ready to storm the gates of power. Let me know when!
Having read many of your posts in the past James I never had you down as a revolutionary! I hadn't intended to imply that teachers are a special case. I'm very aware that many workers are under a lot of pressure and stress, and some are in a worse situation than teachers. I was trying to respond to the suggestion that teachers are little more than lazy, useless and resistant to change when, in my experience, the vast majority are the complete opposite. I get very angry about the effect of Gove's reforms and the damage he is inflicting. It seems highly likely that the teachers pension scheme is affordable - the government refuses to make the figures public to prove otherwise. I may be stretching a point by suggesting that more teachers will die on the job - only time will tell. However I am convinced that many more teachers (and builders, fire officers, bus drivers etc) will have to stop working early on health grounds which, in the end, will prove to be more expensive to the exchequer. I'm ready to storm the gates of power. Let me know when! AndyBlackwood
  • Score: 3

8:22am Sat 22 Mar 14

woodsedge says...

JamesYoung wrote:
AndyBlackwood wrote:
I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?
While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me.
The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering.
Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension).
We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille.
James, I too have noted a more extremist style of response from you over recent months. I do not see this as a bad thing, in deed I welcome someone with strong views that is also articulate and able to think outside the box, I just hope I have not been a bad influence on you as we tend to agree more and more these days. The fact of the matter is that our society is broke and is quickly approaching broken beyond repair status. The recent budget confirms this again with more survival of the fittest policies from those that have the wealth. The working Environment is not one that I recognise from when I started working nearly 30 years ago. Teachers are having to work 60 hours plus per week with only 20 hours actually teaching. The rest of the time is spent completing paperwork for Mr Gove so that he can then 'spin' the education system so that it appears his reforms are working. Under this constant attrition the good teachers will leave and those that stay will give up. We really do need working people, regardless of their political views, to collectively make a stand or we will not have a viable society left to defend.
[quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]AndyBlackwood[/bold] wrote: I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?[/p][/quote]While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me. The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering. Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension). We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille.[/p][/quote]James, I too have noted a more extremist style of response from you over recent months. I do not see this as a bad thing, in deed I welcome someone with strong views that is also articulate and able to think outside the box, I just hope I have not been a bad influence on you as we tend to agree more and more these days. The fact of the matter is that our society is broke and is quickly approaching broken beyond repair status. The recent budget confirms this again with more survival of the fittest policies from those that have the wealth. The working Environment is not one that I recognise from when I started working nearly 30 years ago. Teachers are having to work 60 hours plus per week with only 20 hours actually teaching. The rest of the time is spent completing paperwork for Mr Gove so that he can then 'spin' the education system so that it appears his reforms are working. Under this constant attrition the good teachers will leave and those that stay will give up. We really do need working people, regardless of their political views, to collectively make a stand or we will not have a viable society left to defend. woodsedge
  • Score: -4

7:14pm Sat 22 Mar 14

3rdAccount says...

The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike.

This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.
The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike. This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays. 3rdAccount
  • Score: 2

11:05pm Sat 22 Mar 14

JamesYoung says...

AndyBlackwood wrote:
Having read many of your posts in the past James I never had you down as a revolutionary!
I hadn't intended to imply that teachers are a special case. I'm very aware that many workers are under a lot of pressure and stress, and some are in a worse situation than teachers. I was trying to respond to the suggestion that teachers are little more than lazy, useless and resistant to change when, in my experience, the vast majority are the complete opposite. I get very angry about the effect of Gove's reforms and the damage he is inflicting. It seems highly likely that the teachers pension scheme is affordable - the government refuses to make the figures public to prove otherwise. I may be stretching a point by suggesting that more teachers will die on the job - only time will tell. However I am convinced that many more teachers (and builders, fire officers, bus drivers etc) will have to stop working early on health grounds which, in the end, will prove to be more expensive to the exchequer.
I'm ready to storm the gates of power. Let me know when!
Andy, I have always believed in self determination, with the state being responsible only for those that cannot help themselves. I still don't believe that the public sector worker should have an inalienable right to better pay and conditions than those in the private sector who are paying for it: everybody should enjoy the same rights. I still struggle with the fact that public sector workers do not understand how the public sector is financed by private sector sweat. However, I thought we would see a Conservative government restoring balance to the mess left by Labour. However, it is now clear that the power elites in the major political parties are only interested in colluding with global mega corporations in stealing wealth (through QE, tax and encouragement of debt) from everybody and in particular the genuinely vulnerable (as opposed to the work shy). I suspect that any right thinking conservative or labour voter must now be thinking of revolution. I laughed today at the UKIP European Elections leaflet....in there, one of the candidates is listed as a "property development and landlord". Another parasite, feeding off our young.
[quote][p][bold]AndyBlackwood[/bold] wrote: Having read many of your posts in the past James I never had you down as a revolutionary! I hadn't intended to imply that teachers are a special case. I'm very aware that many workers are under a lot of pressure and stress, and some are in a worse situation than teachers. I was trying to respond to the suggestion that teachers are little more than lazy, useless and resistant to change when, in my experience, the vast majority are the complete opposite. I get very angry about the effect of Gove's reforms and the damage he is inflicting. It seems highly likely that the teachers pension scheme is affordable - the government refuses to make the figures public to prove otherwise. I may be stretching a point by suggesting that more teachers will die on the job - only time will tell. However I am convinced that many more teachers (and builders, fire officers, bus drivers etc) will have to stop working early on health grounds which, in the end, will prove to be more expensive to the exchequer. I'm ready to storm the gates of power. Let me know when![/p][/quote]Andy, I have always believed in self determination, with the state being responsible only for those that cannot help themselves. I still don't believe that the public sector worker should have an inalienable right to better pay and conditions than those in the private sector who are paying for it: everybody should enjoy the same rights. I still struggle with the fact that public sector workers do not understand how the public sector is financed by private sector sweat. However, I thought we would see a Conservative government restoring balance to the mess left by Labour. However, it is now clear that the power elites in the major political parties are only interested in colluding with global mega corporations in stealing wealth (through QE, tax and encouragement of debt) from everybody and in particular the genuinely vulnerable (as opposed to the work shy). I suspect that any right thinking conservative or labour voter must now be thinking of revolution. I laughed today at the UKIP European Elections leaflet....in there, one of the candidates is listed as a "property development and landlord". Another parasite, feeding off our young. JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

11:07pm Sat 22 Mar 14

JamesYoung says...

3rdAccount wrote:
The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike.

This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.
There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are.
[quote][p][bold]3rdAccount[/bold] wrote: The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike. This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.[/p][/quote]There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are. JamesYoung
  • Score: 1

11:09pm Sat 22 Mar 14

JamesYoung says...

woodsedge wrote:
JamesYoung wrote:
AndyBlackwood wrote:
I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?
While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me.
The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering.
Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension).
We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille.
James, I too have noted a more extremist style of response from you over recent months. I do not see this as a bad thing, in deed I welcome someone with strong views that is also articulate and able to think outside the box, I just hope I have not been a bad influence on you as we tend to agree more and more these days. The fact of the matter is that our society is broke and is quickly approaching broken beyond repair status. The recent budget confirms this again with more survival of the fittest policies from those that have the wealth. The working Environment is not one that I recognise from when I started working nearly 30 years ago. Teachers are having to work 60 hours plus per week with only 20 hours actually teaching. The rest of the time is spent completing paperwork for Mr Gove so that he can then 'spin' the education system so that it appears his reforms are working. Under this constant attrition the good teachers will leave and those that stay will give up. We really do need working people, regardless of their political views, to collectively make a stand or we will not have a viable society left to defend.
Let's just say, Woodsedge, that my views on the way the country should run did not take account of the worst excesses of human nature. History will probably be kinder to you ;-).
[quote][p][bold]woodsedge[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]AndyBlackwood[/bold] wrote: I'm guessing you don't go in to schools very often, or it's a long time since you did. Most teachers reading your claim that we simply want to avoid change will be laughing out loud. Do you have any idea how much education has changed in the last 20 years? It's constantly changing. We're permanently being told we have to do things differently. This current dispute isn't about simply avoiding change. It's about Michael Gove wanting to push through changes which will damage the education of millions of young people (far more than missing a day of school due to strike action) He seems to want to take us back to a bygone age when children were very different to the way they are now and received a type of education wholly unsuitable for the 21st century. Most people who don't teach understandably don't appreciate the levels of stress on teachers, in the same way that I can't properly understand the levels of stress in other jobs. But surely most people can understand that teaching is not a job that is suitable for most 68 year olds. There is a real risk, if Gove insists on making teachers work to 68 before they can retire, that many, many more will leave with stress related illnesses or we will have a few literally falling dead in front of their children. Then who's going to call the cemetery?[/p][/quote]While i agree with most of your comments, this "if xxxxx have to work to 68 they'll drop dead on the job" comment is stretching it. It is not just teachers that are being asked to work until 68 - i would be far more concerned about the fate of builders, firemen, dustmen, bus drivers. How about me? I have a _very_stressful job and i have to commute to London to do it, being away from home 3 days a week and working about 60 hours with travel. I'm fairly sure i will have to find something else to do by the time i'm in my mid 60s. I'm also fairly sure that my pitiful pension return will not be enough to support me. I therefore find it hard to sympathise with the teachers, who are in a better boat than me. The reality is that due to action and inaction on the part of government, we are all going to have to work longer. Government failed to take account of demographics in promising unaffordable pensions to public sector workers. It failed to regulate the financial industry to protect the pension pots of private sector workers. It still insists on printing money to create the illusion of growth, creating inflation that is unmatched by pay increases and an asset bubble that enriches nobody other than the banks. Now, we are all suffering. Sadly, teachers can contribute little: the country is now a place of haves and have nots and the education and hard work that got most people over the age of 30 to where they are today will count little. The rungs are not there for today's teenagers. Minimum wage, zero hours contracts in unskilled jobs for the majority. No hope of owning a home. Little chance of retiring (if i was under 25 i'm not sure i'd bother with a pension). We need fundamental change and the only strike that will achieve that is a general strike, followed by a storming of the Bastille.[/p][/quote]James, I too have noted a more extremist style of response from you over recent months. I do not see this as a bad thing, in deed I welcome someone with strong views that is also articulate and able to think outside the box, I just hope I have not been a bad influence on you as we tend to agree more and more these days. The fact of the matter is that our society is broke and is quickly approaching broken beyond repair status. The recent budget confirms this again with more survival of the fittest policies from those that have the wealth. The working Environment is not one that I recognise from when I started working nearly 30 years ago. Teachers are having to work 60 hours plus per week with only 20 hours actually teaching. The rest of the time is spent completing paperwork for Mr Gove so that he can then 'spin' the education system so that it appears his reforms are working. Under this constant attrition the good teachers will leave and those that stay will give up. We really do need working people, regardless of their political views, to collectively make a stand or we will not have a viable society left to defend.[/p][/quote]Let's just say, Woodsedge, that my views on the way the country should run did not take account of the worst excesses of human nature. History will probably be kinder to you ;-). JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

10:42pm Sun 23 Mar 14

luffy22 says...

woodsedge wrote:
elloello1980 wrote:
judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences...

One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person
Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place!
Yes the government may be creating the hardship but thats no reason for teachers to make it far worse for everyone else. I've got children in both junior and secondary schools, last week as parents we had to take Friday off for teacher training day in the senior school, then we had to take one day off the previous week for the teachers training day in the junior schools. The teachers get 3 months holiday a year without making it hard for parents and then they go on strike as they think they deserver more than everyone else who is having a hard time!!!
So in the last 3 weeks I've had to take 3 days of my hard earned holiday so that teachers can not teach.

Get to work or sack the bloody lot of them, import european / chineese teachers and then see how they have to get on in the real world of 5 days weeks 47 weeks a year, having to provide our own pension.

My kids have both complained to me about teachers not being fit for purpose as they can't control classes. And earning more money would not make this better, in fact it is likely that a better class of teacher will be employed therefore brining a self fulfilling prophecy where the current lot are replaced.

SUNDAY NIGHT RANT!!!
[quote][p][bold]woodsedge[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: judging by the likes and dislikes. I assume people do blame the teachers for parents being fined for absences... One of many reasons the country is in such a state. Fight the system, not the person[/p][/quote]Well said elloello1980. All the time working people are blaming each other for the state of the country, politicians are getting away with the policies that are creating the hardship in the first place![/p][/quote]Yes the government may be creating the hardship but thats no reason for teachers to make it far worse for everyone else. I've got children in both junior and secondary schools, last week as parents we had to take Friday off for teacher training day in the senior school, then we had to take one day off the previous week for the teachers training day in the junior schools. The teachers get 3 months holiday a year without making it hard for parents and then they go on strike as they think they deserver more than everyone else who is having a hard time!!! So in the last 3 weeks I've had to take 3 days of my hard earned holiday so that teachers can not teach. Get to work or sack the bloody lot of them, import european / chineese teachers and then see how they have to get on in the real world of 5 days weeks 47 weeks a year, having to provide our own pension. My kids have both complained to me about teachers not being fit for purpose as they can't control classes. And earning more money would not make this better, in fact it is likely that a better class of teacher will be employed therefore brining a self fulfilling prophecy where the current lot are replaced. SUNDAY NIGHT RANT!!! luffy22
  • Score: 2

10:57pm Sun 23 Mar 14

luffy22 says...

JamesYoung wrote:
3rdAccount wrote:
The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike.

This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.
There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are.
The strike centres around and I quote from the BBC 'The dispute centres on the introduction of a new performance-related pay structure and tougher pension package.'
It has nothing to do with enslavement or working conditions, it's about money.

And by going on strike all the teachers are doing is alienating themselves from good honest hard working people with children. And for all the people who don't have children and think its nothing to do with them well it is, the teachers want a bigger proportion of the tax you pay for themselves.

It should be the same all round, during term time teachers should not be allowed to not be at school except for certified sickness, family issues etc the same as the children being sent to school.
[quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]3rdAccount[/bold] wrote: The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike. This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.[/p][/quote]There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are.[/p][/quote]The strike centres around and I quote from the BBC 'The dispute centres on the introduction of a new performance-related pay structure and tougher pension package.' It has nothing to do with enslavement or working conditions, it's about money. And by going on strike all the teachers are doing is alienating themselves from good honest hard working people with children. And for all the people who don't have children and think its nothing to do with them well it is, the teachers want a bigger proportion of the tax you pay for themselves. It should be the same all round, during term time teachers should not be allowed to not be at school except for certified sickness, family issues etc the same as the children being sent to school. luffy22
  • Score: 2

4:23am Mon 24 Mar 14

woodsedge says...

luffy22 wrote:
JamesYoung wrote:
3rdAccount wrote:
The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike.

This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.
There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are.
The strike centres around and I quote from the BBC 'The dispute centres on the introduction of a new performance-related pay structure and tougher pension package.'
It has nothing to do with enslavement or working conditions, it's about money.

And by going on strike all the teachers are doing is alienating themselves from good honest hard working people with children. And for all the people who don't have children and think its nothing to do with them well it is, the teachers want a bigger proportion of the tax you pay for themselves.

It should be the same all round, during term time teachers should not be allowed to not be at school except for certified sickness, family issues etc the same as the children being sent to school.
I wish posters would research the truth before hitting the send button!
[quote][p][bold]luffy22[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]3rdAccount[/bold] wrote: The government need to change the law to make it illegal for teachers to strike. This will then be in line with the law preventing children being taken out of School for family holidays.[/p][/quote]There was a time when i passionately believed that this should be the case. However, what you are actually calling for, here, is enslavement. Every person must go to work every day, no matter how bad his working conditions are.[/p][/quote]The strike centres around and I quote from the BBC 'The dispute centres on the introduction of a new performance-related pay structure and tougher pension package.' It has nothing to do with enslavement or working conditions, it's about money. And by going on strike all the teachers are doing is alienating themselves from good honest hard working people with children. And for all the people who don't have children and think its nothing to do with them well it is, the teachers want a bigger proportion of the tax you pay for themselves. It should be the same all round, during term time teachers should not be allowed to not be at school except for certified sickness, family issues etc the same as the children being sent to school.[/p][/quote]I wish posters would research the truth before hitting the send button! woodsedge
  • Score: -1

7:32pm Tue 25 Mar 14

jamie-c says...

elloello1980 wrote:
Jenny Barnes wrote:
Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday
^ another stupid comment

It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.
Why is that a stupid comment? If I had to take the day off (luckily I have family support, being a full time single parent), I would have to lose a days pay or take it out of my holiday entitlement which I have already arranged around the obscene amount of time they already have off........
[quote][p][bold]elloello1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jenny Barnes[/bold] wrote: Will they pay the parents the daily fine that they have to pay for taking children out of school for a holiday[/p][/quote]^ another stupid comment It's often the hard workers at the frontline that get the criticism from the decisions of those at top.[/p][/quote]Why is that a stupid comment? If I had to take the day off (luckily I have family support, being a full time single parent), I would have to lose a days pay or take it out of my holiday entitlement which I have already arranged around the obscene amount of time they already have off........ jamie-c
  • Score: 0

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