UPDATE: Government 'doesn't have' £10m to fund Condor Ferries berth outright

Dorset Echo: Borough calls on government for harbour funding Borough calls on government for harbour funding

COUNCIL chiefs and campaigners have vowed to fight on after the government said it ‘doesn’t have £10million’ to fund a new berth for Condor Ferries.

A delegation from Weymouth and Portland met with transport secretary Stephen Hammond yesterday to try to secure funding for the new berth, which would accommodate a larger ship that Condor wants to use for its Channel Islands route.

Although the meeting has been deemed ‘constructive’, funding hasn’t been secured.

Speaking afterwards, South Dorset MP Richard Drax said: “We had a useful discussion exploring possible avenues for the future.

“Regrettably, the minister doesn’t have £10million he can give us outright.

“Officials and I will be continuing to work with everyone we can to try and secure the necessary funding.”

He said the minister was ‘keen to help Weymouth how he can’ and that the group will keep fighting to finance repairs that are needed at Weymouth port.

The Echo revealed last month that the future of Condor in Weymouth is uncertain.

A council report stated that Condor had rejected using the refurbished No 3 Berth due to the size of the new vessel, despite £4million worth of repair works being spent on the harbour wall.

It said the ferry firm favoured using No 1 Berth which will need £10million of repair works to make it fit for purpose.

Of yesterday’s meeting, Weymouth and Portland Borough Council interim chief executive Jason Vaughan said: “It was a very constructive meeting, although unfortunately we weren’t able to secure the required investment directly from the government.

“The minister agreed to work with us to explore a way forward and we shall now be discussing a range of options with various partners.

“Our aim remains to secure the long term future of Condor Ferries’ operations from Weymouth Harbour, protect local jobs and continue the historic links to the Channel Islands from the town which are so valued by local people and businesses.”

The Echo started a petition which has gained more than a thousand signatures calling on the company to stay in Weymouth.

Businesses suffered while Condor temporarily moved to Poole and many fear that if the company was to pull out permanently it would have a devastating effect on the town.

Mr Drax added: “It’s very important it stays in Weymouth. It brings about 200 jobs – good jobs, not seasonal jobs.

“The company has been here for a long time and it provides an important link with the Channel Islands and France, which is a very nice thing to have.”

Neither the council nor Mr Drax would be drawn further on what happened at the meeting, or where the delegation will look next for funding.

Condor is Weymouth port’s biggest customer and is said to bring more than £7million a year to the local economy.

The company did not wish to comment on yesterday’s meeting.

James Fulford, chief executive of Condor Ferries, previously said it was ‘working closely with all the interested parties’ regarding berthing arrangements and valued its ‘close relationship’ with Weymouth.

Comments (65)

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12:06pm Mon 19 May 14

Caption Sensible says...

Why have you shown a picture that is not Weymouth harbour?
Why have you shown a picture that is not Weymouth harbour? Caption Sensible
  • Score: 7

1:02pm Mon 19 May 14

MrTomSmith says...

Probably the worst worded and thought out petition I have ever seen.
Probably the worst worded and thought out petition I have ever seen. MrTomSmith
  • Score: 2

1:09pm Mon 19 May 14

Get a grip says...

Caption Sensible wrote:
Why have you shown a picture that is not Weymouth harbour?
Because if you are writing this artical from you office in Granby and never get out you will not know Weymouth harbour from you elbow.
[quote][p][bold]Caption Sensible[/bold] wrote: Why have you shown a picture that is not Weymouth harbour?[/p][/quote]Because if you are writing this artical from you office in Granby and never get out you will not know Weymouth harbour from you elbow. Get a grip
  • Score: 9

1:12pm Mon 19 May 14

IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE says...

They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation!
They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation! IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE
  • Score: -11

1:13pm Mon 19 May 14

MrTomSmith says...

Actually what it should have said was "I am a Tax payer in Weymouth and Portland and I am happy to see 10 Million of Tax Payer's money spent on top of the 4 Million already spent so that Condor can keep placing adverts in our newspaper" That might sound pretty unfair, but I tell you something is not as unfair as the one that is supposed to representing our community. Which is a begging letter, no more than that, a begging letter, its a complete disgrace in my opinion.
Well lets see how they get on later today, I would still rather the 10 Million go on something better for our community, if Condor want to spend 10 Million great, but don't see why I should chip in.. .
Actually what it should have said was "I am a Tax payer in Weymouth and Portland and I am happy to see 10 Million of Tax Payer's money spent on top of the 4 Million already spent so that Condor can keep placing adverts in our newspaper" That might sound pretty unfair, but I tell you something is not as unfair as the one that is supposed to representing our community. Which is a begging letter, no more than that, a begging letter, its a complete disgrace in my opinion. Well lets see how they get on later today, I would still rather the 10 Million go on something better for our community, if Condor want to spend 10 Million great, but don't see why I should chip in.. . MrTomSmith
  • Score: 24

1:19pm Mon 19 May 14

February1948 says...

As I have said before on a previous Condor-related thread, the Government has no money of its own, it is ours, the tax-payers and, certainly in West Dorset, we see enough of our money thrown away (WDDC offices in Dorchester/Simons the developers etc.) without yet another £10M to a company that may or may not use it for our benefit. Just think how many new houses could be built for £10 to get our youngsters on to the housing ladder or put into schools, hospitals and hundreds of other deserving causes!
As I have said before on a previous Condor-related thread, the Government has no money of its own, it is ours, the tax-payers and, certainly in West Dorset, we see enough of our money thrown away (WDDC offices in Dorchester/Simons the developers etc.) without yet another £10M to a company that may or may not use it for our benefit. Just think how many new houses could be built for £10 to get our youngsters on to the housing ladder or put into schools, hospitals and hundreds of other deserving causes! February1948
  • Score: 15

1:37pm Mon 19 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

I suspect (as has been hinted at in previous Condor related threads) that the MP is aware of some kind of coastal regeneration (or similar) fund available, that may be suitable in cases such as this. I certainly do not see this as a "begging bowl" initiative, as that would (I agreee) be doomed to failure.

Simon N.
I suspect (as has been hinted at in previous Condor related threads) that the MP is aware of some kind of coastal regeneration (or similar) fund available, that may be suitable in cases such as this. I certainly do not see this as a "begging bowl" initiative, as that would (I agreee) be doomed to failure. Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 5

2:15pm Mon 19 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised.
Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 11

2:22pm Mon 19 May 14

JamesYoung says...

IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE wrote:
They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation!
Yup, which is something of an irony given, for example, the French government's funding of Airbus, Renault, Peugeot, the near impossibility for foreign telecoms carriers to compete with France Telecom or Telefonica, etc :-).
[quote][p][bold]IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE[/bold] wrote: They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation![/p][/quote]Yup, which is something of an irony given, for example, the French government's funding of Airbus, Renault, Peugeot, the near impossibility for foreign telecoms carriers to compete with France Telecom or Telefonica, etc :-). JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

2:23pm Mon 19 May 14

JamesYoung says...

Bob Goulding wrote:
Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised.
I'm not sure how they benefit, though, Bob. If Condor moved to Poole, the service would still run.
[quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised.[/p][/quote]I'm not sure how they benefit, though, Bob. If Condor moved to Poole, the service would still run. JamesYoung
  • Score: 8

2:28pm Mon 19 May 14

JamesYoung says...

I wish we could get to the bones of how Weymouth benefits from this service. We are told that the town benefits to the tune of £7m a year, but that is clearly a finger in the air figure.
Mr Drax tells us that there are 200 "good jobs" associated with the service. Again, i just don't see this. I very much doubt that Condor employs more than a dozen or so shore based staff in Weymouth. The ship based jobs would presumably move with the vessel, as would the staff that have them. I can see some unemployment arising from this (lower waged jobs - not worth the move) but i'm sure that figure is not 200.
So then we are back to a number of dependent jobs in the local economy. Again, it's difficult to know what they are.
Final thought: if this investment makes financial sense, then the council would be able to borrow the money to do it commercially, in which case this development can go ahead. If, however, it cannot, then one has to wonder how sound the business case really is.
I wish we could get to the bones of how Weymouth benefits from this service. We are told that the town benefits to the tune of £7m a year, but that is clearly a finger in the air figure. Mr Drax tells us that there are 200 "good jobs" associated with the service. Again, i just don't see this. I very much doubt that Condor employs more than a dozen or so shore based staff in Weymouth. The ship based jobs would presumably move with the vessel, as would the staff that have them. I can see some unemployment arising from this (lower waged jobs - not worth the move) but i'm sure that figure is not 200. So then we are back to a number of dependent jobs in the local economy. Again, it's difficult to know what they are. Final thought: if this investment makes financial sense, then the council would be able to borrow the money to do it commercially, in which case this development can go ahead. If, however, it cannot, then one has to wonder how sound the business case really is. JamesYoung
  • Score: 16

2:30pm Mon 19 May 14

terra firma says...

Didn't Liverpool get £M's of EU funds for their new Cruise terminal?
Didn't Liverpool get £M's of EU funds for their new Cruise terminal? terra firma
  • Score: 4

2:33pm Mon 19 May 14

arlbergbahn says...

Government doesn't have 10 million? Oh my lord, things are worse than i thought. Do you think the Echo ought to organise a whip round for them?
Government doesn't have 10 million? Oh my lord, things are worse than i thought. Do you think the Echo ought to organise a whip round for them? arlbergbahn
  • Score: -4

2:35pm Mon 19 May 14

arlbergbahn says...

Anyway, i'm pretty sure that mr. D would have 10 mill knocking around in loose change, if they're that hard up.
Anyway, i'm pretty sure that mr. D would have 10 mill knocking around in loose change, if they're that hard up. arlbergbahn
  • Score: -6

2:36pm Mon 19 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

JamesYoung wrote:
Bob Goulding wrote:
Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised.
I'm not sure how they benefit, though, Bob. If Condor moved to Poole, the service would still run.
There would be a fuel penalty by moving to Poole which Condor would want to avoid (I believe their temporary stay in Poole cost Condor Ferries more than a million pounds). In the long term this would increase fares and reduce passenger numbers and, in the worse case scenario, could force Condor to pull out completely.
[quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: Has no-one thought to ask the States of Jersey and the States of Guernsey to contribute to this upgrade given that the services are far more important to their economies than they are to those of Weymouth & Portland or Poole? The services run by Condor Ferries are not just a business they represent a part of the national transport infrastructure in much the same way as railway franchises. Indeed, the services used to be operated by British Rail until they were privatised.[/p][/quote]I'm not sure how they benefit, though, Bob. If Condor moved to Poole, the service would still run.[/p][/quote]There would be a fuel penalty by moving to Poole which Condor would want to avoid (I believe their temporary stay in Poole cost Condor Ferries more than a million pounds). In the long term this would increase fares and reduce passenger numbers and, in the worse case scenario, could force Condor to pull out completely. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 5

2:47pm Mon 19 May 14

Preston North End says...

If Drax didn't have the central money 'in the bag' (had it, not just thought he had it) he should've said nothing to avoid looking silly.
If Drax didn't have the central money 'in the bag' (had it, not just thought he had it) he should've said nothing to avoid looking silly. Preston North End
  • Score: 0

2:59pm Mon 19 May 14

MrTomSmith says...

Its a commercial company that has a very restrictive audience, very restrictive indeed, this was doomed for failure, with a pathetic rushed petition. Correct decision made. Please Mr Drax just for one minute step back and check with your voters what they actually want here.
Its a commercial company that has a very restrictive audience, very restrictive indeed, this was doomed for failure, with a pathetic rushed petition. Correct decision made. Please Mr Drax just for one minute step back and check with your voters what they actually want here. MrTomSmith
  • Score: 2

3:25pm Mon 19 May 14

annotater says...

Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents.
Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience?
Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents. Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience? annotater
  • Score: 18

3:57pm Mon 19 May 14

February1948 says...

JamesYoung wrote:
IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE wrote: They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation!
Yup, which is something of an irony given, for example, the French government's funding of Airbus, Renault, Peugeot, the near impossibility for foreign telecoms carriers to compete with France Telecom or Telefonica, etc :-).
I think you'll find that the French do whatever they like with utter disregard for anyone or anything else, including the EU!
[quote][p][bold]JamesYoung[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IDONTKNOWIFITISTRRUE[/bold] wrote: They may ask for this funding but you can bet that the EU would put the dampers on government funding for the benefit of a commercial organisation![/p][/quote]Yup, which is something of an irony given, for example, the French government's funding of Airbus, Renault, Peugeot, the near impossibility for foreign telecoms carriers to compete with France Telecom or Telefonica, etc :-).[/p][/quote]I think you'll find that the French do whatever they like with utter disregard for anyone or anything else, including the EU! February1948
  • Score: 6

3:58pm Mon 19 May 14

westbaywonder says...

£10 MILLION Easy!
£5 million from Drax and £5 million from the council and there you are citizens £10 Million Simples!
£10 MILLION Easy! £5 million from Drax and £5 million from the council and there you are citizens £10 Million Simples! westbaywonder
  • Score: 0

4:05pm Mon 19 May 14

arlbergbahn says...

annotater wrote:
Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents.
Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience?
it's nothing to DO with lack of maintenance. They can hardly be blamed for lack of maintenance of a berth that doesn't exist. That's the whole point, the Condor ferry company want them to construct a completely new one, solely for their own use. It's nothing to do with lack of maintenance or incompetence by a bunch of muppets.
[quote][p][bold]annotater[/bold] wrote: Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents. Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience?[/p][/quote]it's nothing to DO with lack of maintenance. They can hardly be blamed for lack of maintenance of a berth that doesn't exist. That's the whole point, the Condor ferry company want them to construct a completely new one, solely for their own use. It's nothing to do with lack of maintenance or incompetence by a bunch of muppets. arlbergbahn
  • Score: 2

4:13pm Mon 19 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

arlbergbahn wrote:
annotater wrote:
Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents.
Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience?
it's nothing to DO with lack of maintenance. They can hardly be blamed for lack of maintenance of a berth that doesn't exist. That's the whole point, the Condor ferry company want them to construct a completely new one, solely for their own use. It's nothing to do with lack of maintenance or incompetence by a bunch of muppets.
Yes, but please remember, apart from the recent repairs to the wall of berth 3, the ferry terminal has had no structural improvement or development done to it since 1974 when it was constructed. The world is a changed place now, and so is the ferry industry, and their needs. The authority have never seemed to appreciate this. However, this 10 million, if spent now, will secure Weymouth`s future as a passenger port for many, many years, not just for Condor, but for the companies that will come after them.
[quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]annotater[/bold] wrote: Historical lack of maintenance by greedy incompetents. Berthing fees, over many years, would easily have covered all repairs, so where has it gone, who has bulging pockets, a nice house and no conscience?[/p][/quote]it's nothing to DO with lack of maintenance. They can hardly be blamed for lack of maintenance of a berth that doesn't exist. That's the whole point, the Condor ferry company want them to construct a completely new one, solely for their own use. It's nothing to do with lack of maintenance or incompetence by a bunch of muppets.[/p][/quote]Yes, but please remember, apart from the recent repairs to the wall of berth 3, the ferry terminal has had no structural improvement or development done to it since 1974 when it was constructed. The world is a changed place now, and so is the ferry industry, and their needs. The authority have never seemed to appreciate this. However, this 10 million, if spent now, will secure Weymouth`s future as a passenger port for many, many years, not just for Condor, but for the companies that will come after them. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 2

4:22pm Mon 19 May 14

arlbergbahn says...

Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.
Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it. arlbergbahn
  • Score: 8

4:39pm Mon 19 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

arlbergbahn wrote:
Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.
I have never understood that argument to be honest - Condor own and run ferries in the same way that airlines own and run planes - they both pay heavily to use facilities at airports and ferry terminals, regardless of whether said facilities are local authority or privately owned. In addition, Condor only currently have a short term licence to operate ferries to the Channel Islands (it runs out December 2017, although they are negiotiating a new one based on this confounded super ferry! ), so it would not make financial sense to "help out" anyway, even if they wanted to. Don`t forget as well that Condor have other options at Poole and Portsmouth, although neither are perfect - Weymouth does appear to still be their preferred choice, which is why everyone is running around trying to secure the monies necessary.
[quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.[/p][/quote]I have never understood that argument to be honest - Condor own and run ferries in the same way that airlines own and run planes - they both pay heavily to use facilities at airports and ferry terminals, regardless of whether said facilities are local authority or privately owned. In addition, Condor only currently have a short term licence to operate ferries to the Channel Islands (it runs out December 2017, although they are negiotiating a new one based on this confounded super ferry! ), so it would not make financial sense to "help out" anyway, even if they wanted to. Don`t forget as well that Condor have other options at Poole and Portsmouth, although neither are perfect - Weymouth does appear to still be their preferred choice, which is why everyone is running around trying to secure the monies necessary. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 2

4:40pm Mon 19 May 14

MrTomSmith says...

arlbergbahn wrote:
Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.
With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay.
[quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.[/p][/quote]With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay. MrTomSmith
  • Score: 1

4:52pm Mon 19 May 14

Get a grip says...

MrTomSmith wrote:
arlbergbahn wrote:
Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.
With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay.
Would not the total spend be £14 million as the £4 million has been wasted?
[quote][p][bold]MrTomSmith[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.[/p][/quote]With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay.[/p][/quote]Would not the total spend be £14 million as the £4 million has been wasted? Get a grip
  • Score: 4

4:58pm Mon 19 May 14

aviskat says...

Would £10M also cover the traffic systems to revert to safer pre-Olympics system after the council must have had a few million £'s which they threw away?
Would £10M also cover the traffic systems to revert to safer pre-Olympics system after the council must have had a few million £'s which they threw away? aviskat
  • Score: 3

5:50pm Mon 19 May 14

JackJohnson says...

I can't see what all the fuss is about. There'll be a PFI deal along soon to rescue Weymouth. ;-)
I can't see what all the fuss is about. There'll be a PFI deal along soon to rescue Weymouth. ;-) JackJohnson
  • Score: 6

7:11pm Mon 19 May 14

Caption Sensible says...

Put the whole site out to tender and see what expressions of interest there is, what plans are outlined, and then go from there...

You know, a bit like 6 years ago... But this time keep 'Our Weymouth' out of it!
Put the whole site out to tender and see what expressions of interest there is, what plans are outlined, and then go from there... You know, a bit like 6 years ago... But this time keep 'Our Weymouth' out of it! Caption Sensible
  • Score: 5

11:21pm Mon 19 May 14

Parkstreetshufle says...

200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???
Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs????????

Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service.
Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.
200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash. Parkstreetshufle
  • Score: 4

7:32am Tue 20 May 14

MrTomSmith says...

Get a grip wrote:
MrTomSmith wrote:
arlbergbahn wrote:
Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.
With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay.
Would not the total spend be £14 million as the £4 million has been wasted?
Well I didn't include the 4 Million for Berth 3 as money for that was paid for by Condor over many years but the Council did not do any repairs to the wall, so that was incompetence by the Council. But agree it shouldn't be forgotten about, it is part of the whole sorry saga. It is a lot of money to commit though with this bombshell breaking only a few months later.
[quote][p][bold]Get a grip[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MrTomSmith[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: Then why, if this needs to be done entirely and purely for the benefit of Condor ferries, can't Condor ferries pay for it themselves? It's not "for the public good", it's only then that'll use it. Would any other business that wants something done purely for their own benefit expect the local authority to stump up for it? Surely they'd at the very least be expected to contribute towards it.[/p][/quote]With you all the way Arfbergbahn. 10 Million!! I keep repeating it because I don't think it is sinking in with some just how much they are asking US to pay.[/p][/quote]Would not the total spend be £14 million as the £4 million has been wasted?[/p][/quote]Well I didn't include the 4 Million for Berth 3 as money for that was paid for by Condor over many years but the Council did not do any repairs to the wall, so that was incompetence by the Council. But agree it shouldn't be forgotten about, it is part of the whole sorry saga. It is a lot of money to commit though with this bombshell breaking only a few months later. MrTomSmith
  • Score: 3

10:49am Tue 20 May 14

Zummerzet Lad says...

Would it cost £10 Million to improve road link to Portland for Condor to operate from there?
Would it cost £10 Million to improve road link to Portland for Condor to operate from there? Zummerzet Lad
  • Score: 1

12:03pm Tue 20 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Zummerzet Lad wrote:
Would it cost £10 Million to improve road link to Portland for Condor to operate from there?
There's nothing wrong with the road link to Portland. The issue is with the provision of 'ramps' for Ro-Ro operations plus some suitable quayside passenger and vehicle handling facilities.
[quote][p][bold]Zummerzet Lad[/bold] wrote: Would it cost £10 Million to improve road link to Portland for Condor to operate from there?[/p][/quote]There's nothing wrong with the road link to Portland. The issue is with the provision of 'ramps' for Ro-Ro operations plus some suitable quayside passenger and vehicle handling facilities. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 1

12:22pm Tue 20 May 14

Chris12 says...

Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years.

It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment.

I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic.

They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry?

The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story.

The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers.

Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them.

Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ! Chris12
  • Score: 8

12:48pm Tue 20 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Chris12 wrote:
Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years.

It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment.

I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic.

They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry?

The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story.

The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers.

Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them.

Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.
[quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ![/p][/quote]The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 0

1:11pm Tue 20 May 14

February1948 says...

Parkstreetshufle wrote:
200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.
And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth!
[quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.[/p][/quote]And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth! February1948
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Tue 20 May 14

ronfogg says...

Another success for Mr Drax. Clearly a man of influence. A man who gets things done
Another success for Mr Drax. Clearly a man of influence. A man who gets things done ronfogg
  • Score: -1

1:26pm Tue 20 May 14

lifecoach says...

Most of this story seems wasted. Weymouth even as little as 10 years ago had the world at its feet and everything going for it. If condor pulled out no one would really have cared as there was so much other stuff going on. I feel that due to the mismanagement of the town since the day London got chosen for the Olympics and the subsequent sailing events it has been on a slippery slope based on arrogance and lack of commercial business brains within the council. The commercial folk at condor will be laughing their heads off. They can now demand anything by using this threat of a pull out knowing that the town is so on its backside that it needs the through traffic of people they provide. The story behind the story is the sad part. I dont even blame the elected members of the council its the names i keep seeing who run our town on the executive side that have to take the blame here.
Most of this story seems wasted. Weymouth even as little as 10 years ago had the world at its feet and everything going for it. If condor pulled out no one would really have cared as there was so much other stuff going on. I feel that due to the mismanagement of the town since the day London got chosen for the Olympics and the subsequent sailing events it has been on a slippery slope based on arrogance and lack of commercial business brains within the council. The commercial folk at condor will be laughing their heads off. They can now demand anything by using this threat of a pull out knowing that the town is so on its backside that it needs the through traffic of people they provide. The story behind the story is the sad part. I dont even blame the elected members of the council its the names i keep seeing who run our town on the executive side that have to take the blame here. lifecoach
  • Score: 2

1:29pm Tue 20 May 14

sjc100 says...

February1948 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.
And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth!
its not just the people condor employ its all the other companies they use in weymouth that help to keep people employed. Alot of the crew that sail from Poole actually live in weymouth.
[quote][p][bold]February1948[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.[/p][/quote]And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth![/p][/quote]its not just the people condor employ its all the other companies they use in weymouth that help to keep people employed. Alot of the crew that sail from Poole actually live in weymouth. sjc100
  • Score: 1

1:40pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

sjc100 wrote:
February1948 wrote:
Parkstreetshufle wrote:
200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.
And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth!
its not just the people condor employ its all the other companies they use in weymouth that help to keep people employed. Alot of the crew that sail from Poole actually live in weymouth.
And all the back office staff and reservations teams - also the contractors who work on a daily basis to keep the ships operational, and the numerous local suppliers that Condor use for all and sundry.

Simon N.
[quote][p][bold]sjc100[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]February1948[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Parkstreetshufle[/bold] wrote: 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs??? Sorry, 200 jobs, good non seasonal jobs???????? Where? Doing what? I see about twenty five people at most whenever Ive used the service. Half of the crew are French so they don't count. A load of crew are in Poole. What a load of old eyewash.[/p][/quote]And the passengers drive on and off and don't hang around in Weymouth![/p][/quote]its not just the people condor employ its all the other companies they use in weymouth that help to keep people employed. Alot of the crew that sail from Poole actually live in weymouth.[/p][/quote]And all the back office staff and reservations teams - also the contractors who work on a daily basis to keep the ships operational, and the numerous local suppliers that Condor use for all and sundry. Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 0

2:18pm Tue 20 May 14

portlandboy says...

There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council.
Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration.
Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story.
I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it?
There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council. Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration. Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story. I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it? portlandboy
  • Score: 2

3:30pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

portlandboy wrote:
There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council.
Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration.
Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story.
I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it?
It was Condor themselves who paid experts to survey the harbour and come up with costs of conversion. I suspect all this was done around the time that Condor were offering "the 15 year long term commitment" as part of a charm offensive to sweeten the blow of the cost of the berth 1 conversion. These negotiations have therefore been going on for months, in secret, which I believe is what Condor wanted, as they are still refusing to comment now.

Simon N.
[quote][p][bold]portlandboy[/bold] wrote: There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council. Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration. Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story. I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it?[/p][/quote]It was Condor themselves who paid experts to survey the harbour and come up with costs of conversion. I suspect all this was done around the time that Condor were offering "the 15 year long term commitment" as part of a charm offensive to sweeten the blow of the cost of the berth 1 conversion. These negotiations have therefore been going on for months, in secret, which I believe is what Condor wanted, as they are still refusing to comment now. Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 0

3:54pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

As the MP and local authority are limited in what they can say, and Condor will not say a word, or even state their case, all we have been able to do is speculate. However, from reading between the lines and researching the issue on various web-sites, this appears to be the story to date.

1) Condor have known for some time that they needed to replace their current fleet, and had been assessing the merits of four very different vessels.

2) By Autumn of last year, they had decided to replace both Express and Vitesse with one new "Super Ferry", and undertook a survey of Weymouth harbour to find out how much it would take (and cost!) to convert Berth 1 for the purpose.

3) As they paid for the survey themselves, its obvious that Weymouth remains their preferred choice of port going forward, and it was then that they offered Weymouth a long term commitment, presumably in exchange for the local authority funding the conversion work.

4) If they had decided to move everything to Poole to accommodate the new ferry, they would have announced it by now, and the officers of the council and the MP would not be running around trying to secure funds to pay for the investment.

5) The council and MP are obviously aware therefore that Condor want to stay - however, Condor can`t sign the long term commitment that the council want as they are still themselves negotiating with the Channel Islands authorities over a long term contract, their current one runs out at the end of 2017.

Which brings me to the issue of the "Super Ferry" - Condor have stated that they cannot order it until the long term future of their service is secured by the signing of the long term contract with the
Channel Islands mentioned above. As I assume that manufacturers do not build 50 million pound ships for "stock", work cannot begin under Condor sign for it. Allowing therefore for build time of up to a year, and then sea trials and training, it is unlikely to be ready until the 2016 season.

Even in the worst case scenario then, the Condor link from Weymouth would appear to be secure for the 2014 and 2015 seasons at least.

If anybody "in the know" can expand or correct any of the above, I would be more than interested to hear it.

Cheers
Simon N.
As the MP and local authority are limited in what they can say, and Condor will not say a word, or even state their case, all we have been able to do is speculate. However, from reading between the lines and researching the issue on various web-sites, this appears to be the story to date. 1) Condor have known for some time that they needed to replace their current fleet, and had been assessing the merits of four very different vessels. 2) By Autumn of last year, they had decided to replace both Express and Vitesse with one new "Super Ferry", and undertook a survey of Weymouth harbour to find out how much it would take (and cost!) to convert Berth 1 for the purpose. 3) As they paid for the survey themselves, its obvious that Weymouth remains their preferred choice of port going forward, and it was then that they offered Weymouth a long term commitment, presumably in exchange for the local authority funding the conversion work. 4) If they had decided to move everything to Poole to accommodate the new ferry, they would have announced it by now, and the officers of the council and the MP would not be running around trying to secure funds to pay for the investment. 5) The council and MP are obviously aware therefore that Condor want to stay - however, Condor can`t sign the long term commitment that the council want as they are still themselves negotiating with the Channel Islands authorities over a long term contract, their current one runs out at the end of 2017. Which brings me to the issue of the "Super Ferry" - Condor have stated that they cannot order it until the long term future of their service is secured by the signing of the long term contract with the Channel Islands mentioned above. As I assume that manufacturers do not build 50 million pound ships for "stock", work cannot begin under Condor sign for it. Allowing therefore for build time of up to a year, and then sea trials and training, it is unlikely to be ready until the 2016 season. Even in the worst case scenario then, the Condor link from Weymouth would appear to be secure for the 2014 and 2015 seasons at least. If anybody "in the know" can expand or correct any of the above, I would be more than interested to hear it. Cheers Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 3

4:54pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

As a footnote to my last comment, the manufacturer of the "Super Ferry" does appear to have bulit one for stock atter all, and a "European" operator has signed a "pre purchase agreement" for it, fro delivery towards the end of 2014.

http://www.bairdmari
time.com/index.php?o
ption=com_content&vi
ew=article&id=14876:
austal-finally-sells
-102-metre-trimaran&
catid=71&Itemid=63
As a footnote to my last comment, the manufacturer of the "Super Ferry" does appear to have bulit one for stock atter all, and a "European" operator has signed a "pre purchase agreement" for it, fro delivery towards the end of 2014. http://www.bairdmari time.com/index.php?o ption=com_content&vi ew=article&id=14876: austal-finally-sells -102-metre-trimaran& catid=71&Itemid=63 Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 1

5:01pm Tue 20 May 14

portlandboy says...

Simon Nicholas wrote:
portlandboy wrote:
There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council.
Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration.
Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story.
I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it?
It was Condor themselves who paid experts to survey the harbour and come up with costs of conversion. I suspect all this was done around the time that Condor were offering "the 15 year long term commitment" as part of a charm offensive to sweeten the blow of the cost of the berth 1 conversion. These negotiations have therefore been going on for months, in secret, which I believe is what Condor wanted, as they are still refusing to comment now.

Simon N.
So how does anyone at the council actually know that the £10 million figure is correct? A survey would have required the council to allow someone to go into the secure area of berth 1 and would have meant that the council knew what was being considered. So either they knew a lot longer ago than they have admitted, or the survey was just a quick guess.
I suspect the £10 million is purely a guess, not from a full appraisal of the job and the eventual cost would run well over that figure, just as it did with the repairs to the wall. But who would fund such a cost then, once work has started and the council are locked into the contract?
[quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]portlandboy[/bold] wrote: There's something very strange about this "We need £10 million" statement from the council. Less than a month ago the Echo headlines revealed the "Shock News" that Condor had ordered a new, larger vessel but somehow, in only a couple of weeks, the council have managed to get contractors to quote a price, put together an application for funding, organised a meeting with the Transport Minister, and put forward a case for consideration. Anyone who has ever tried to deal with the council on matters of finance, planning or business proposals will know for sure that the procedures and time scales don't add up in regard to this "£10 million to keep Condor" story. I wonder how accurate the costings are and just how professionally they represented Weymouth's case given such a short time in which to prepare it?[/p][/quote]It was Condor themselves who paid experts to survey the harbour and come up with costs of conversion. I suspect all this was done around the time that Condor were offering "the 15 year long term commitment" as part of a charm offensive to sweeten the blow of the cost of the berth 1 conversion. These negotiations have therefore been going on for months, in secret, which I believe is what Condor wanted, as they are still refusing to comment now. Simon N.[/p][/quote]So how does anyone at the council actually know that the £10 million figure is correct? A survey would have required the council to allow someone to go into the secure area of berth 1 and would have meant that the council knew what was being considered. So either they knew a lot longer ago than they have admitted, or the survey was just a quick guess. I suspect the £10 million is purely a guess, not from a full appraisal of the job and the eventual cost would run well over that figure, just as it did with the repairs to the wall. But who would fund such a cost then, once work has started and the council are locked into the contract? portlandboy
  • Score: 0

5:41pm Tue 20 May 14

Chris12 says...

Simon Nicholas wrote:
As the MP and local authority are limited in what they can say, and Condor will not say a word, or even state their case, all we have been able to do is speculate. However, from reading between the lines and researching the issue on various web-sites, this appears to be the story to date. 1) Condor have known for some time that they needed to replace their current fleet, and had been assessing the merits of four very different vessels. 2) By Autumn of last year, they had decided to replace both Express and Vitesse with one new "Super Ferry", and undertook a survey of Weymouth harbour to find out how much it would take (and cost!) to convert Berth 1 for the purpose. 3) As they paid for the survey themselves, its obvious that Weymouth remains their preferred choice of port going forward, and it was then that they offered Weymouth a long term commitment, presumably in exchange for the local authority funding the conversion work. 4) If they had decided to move everything to Poole to accommodate the new ferry, they would have announced it by now, and the officers of the council and the MP would not be running around trying to secure funds to pay for the investment. 5) The council and MP are obviously aware therefore that Condor want to stay - however, Condor can`t sign the long term commitment that the council want as they are still themselves negotiating with the Channel Islands authorities over a long term contract, their current one runs out at the end of 2017. Which brings me to the issue of the "Super Ferry" - Condor have stated that they cannot order it until the long term future of their service is secured by the signing of the long term contract with the Channel Islands mentioned above. As I assume that manufacturers do not build 50 million pound ships for "stock", work cannot begin under Condor sign for it. Allowing therefore for build time of up to a year, and then sea trials and training, it is unlikely to be ready until the 2016 season. Even in the worst case scenario then, the Condor link from Weymouth would appear to be secure for the 2014 and 2015 seasons at least. If anybody "in the know" can expand or correct any of the above, I would be more than interested to hear it. Cheers Simon N.
I believe the vessel is already built and has been available for a few years. It was built by he boulders to keep things ticking over whilst waiting for work and is a development of a vessel currently operating In the Canary Islands by Fred Olsen Lines.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: As the MP and local authority are limited in what they can say, and Condor will not say a word, or even state their case, all we have been able to do is speculate. However, from reading between the lines and researching the issue on various web-sites, this appears to be the story to date. 1) Condor have known for some time that they needed to replace their current fleet, and had been assessing the merits of four very different vessels. 2) By Autumn of last year, they had decided to replace both Express and Vitesse with one new "Super Ferry", and undertook a survey of Weymouth harbour to find out how much it would take (and cost!) to convert Berth 1 for the purpose. 3) As they paid for the survey themselves, its obvious that Weymouth remains their preferred choice of port going forward, and it was then that they offered Weymouth a long term commitment, presumably in exchange for the local authority funding the conversion work. 4) If they had decided to move everything to Poole to accommodate the new ferry, they would have announced it by now, and the officers of the council and the MP would not be running around trying to secure funds to pay for the investment. 5) The council and MP are obviously aware therefore that Condor want to stay - however, Condor can`t sign the long term commitment that the council want as they are still themselves negotiating with the Channel Islands authorities over a long term contract, their current one runs out at the end of 2017. Which brings me to the issue of the "Super Ferry" - Condor have stated that they cannot order it until the long term future of their service is secured by the signing of the long term contract with the Channel Islands mentioned above. As I assume that manufacturers do not build 50 million pound ships for "stock", work cannot begin under Condor sign for it. Allowing therefore for build time of up to a year, and then sea trials and training, it is unlikely to be ready until the 2016 season. Even in the worst case scenario then, the Condor link from Weymouth would appear to be secure for the 2014 and 2015 seasons at least. If anybody "in the know" can expand or correct any of the above, I would be more than interested to hear it. Cheers Simon N.[/p][/quote]I believe the vessel is already built and has been available for a few years. It was built by he boulders to keep things ticking over whilst waiting for work and is a development of a vessel currently operating In the Canary Islands by Fred Olsen Lines. Chris12
  • Score: 0

5:42pm Tue 20 May 14

Chris12 says...

Boulders being a typo for builders obviously !
Boulders being a typo for builders obviously ! Chris12
  • Score: 0

5:49pm Tue 20 May 14

Chris12 says...

Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.
I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same.

Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.
[quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ![/p][/quote]The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.[/p][/quote]I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole. Chris12
  • Score: 0

6:27pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

Chris,

I agree with what you are saying - should Weymouth not find the 10 million pounds, Condor will have no choice but to move to Poole, and absorb the additional fuel costs in whatever way they can.

However, I truly believe that at this moment in time, Weymouth is where they want to be long term. I suspect its the link that the Channel Islands want as well, as the negotiations going on at the moment are "three way" .

As such, it appears that as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor get their long term Channel Ialands "sole operator" contract, and this in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry".

Simon N.
Chris, I agree with what you are saying - should Weymouth not find the 10 million pounds, Condor will have no choice but to move to Poole, and absorb the additional fuel costs in whatever way they can. However, I truly believe that at this moment in time, Weymouth is where they want to be long term. I suspect its the link that the Channel Islands want as well, as the negotiations going on at the moment are "three way" . As such, it appears that as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor get their long term Channel Ialands "sole operator" contract, and this in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry". Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 1

6:27pm Tue 20 May 14

ddynammo says...

It seems relatively simple to me, its a business proposition.... The Council borrows the money from a financial institution. It has to make repayments over say 15, 20 or 25 years. The rate they then charge Condor is determined by the payments they have to make.... take a longer lease and their payments are less. An insurance bond could be bought in case Condor go bankrupt to guarantee residents they wouldn't have to foot the bill in such an eventuality. Additionally, There could also be a levy of say £1 per room on folk who are travelling on the Condor ferry. I would suggest that all B&B businesses would be prepared to buy into this arrangement. This fund could be used for regular maintenance costs.
Eddie Chapman
It seems relatively simple to me, its a business proposition.... The Council borrows the money from a financial institution. It has to make repayments over say 15, 20 or 25 years. The rate they then charge Condor is determined by the payments they have to make.... take a longer lease and their payments are less. An insurance bond could be bought in case Condor go bankrupt to guarantee residents they wouldn't have to foot the bill in such an eventuality. Additionally, There could also be a levy of say £1 per room on folk who are travelling on the Condor ferry. I would suggest that all B&B businesses would be prepared to buy into this arrangement. This fund could be used for regular maintenance costs. Eddie Chapman ddynammo
  • Score: 2

6:29pm Tue 20 May 14

Noidear says...

I think this is a good time for the council to show there worth, if condor want to force a situation , weymouth get out there and find another ferry company, that make erm sit up and listen. Let's see weymouth shine again.
I think this is a good time for the council to show there worth, if condor want to force a situation , weymouth get out there and find another ferry company, that make erm sit up and listen. Let's see weymouth shine again. Noidear
  • Score: 0

6:57pm Tue 20 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Chris12 wrote:
Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.
I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same.

Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.
Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases.
[quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ![/p][/quote]The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.[/p][/quote]I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.[/p][/quote]Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 0

7:56pm Tue 20 May 14

arlbergbahn says...

The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy.
The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy. arlbergbahn
  • Score: 0

8:25pm Tue 20 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

arlbergbahn wrote:
The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy.
As far as I understand, they only intend to use one port once this new ferry is operational. Therefore, and as I said earlier, as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor will get their long term Channel Islands "sole operator" contract, which in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry", with Weymouth becoming the sole port of exit.

Its all one big interconnected "pack of cards" which is why everything is so blooming secretive!
[quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy.[/p][/quote]As far as I understand, they only intend to use one port once this new ferry is operational. Therefore, and as I said earlier, as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor will get their long term Channel Islands "sole operator" contract, which in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry", with Weymouth becoming the sole port of exit. Its all one big interconnected "pack of cards" which is why everything is so blooming secretive! Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 1

12:01am Wed 21 May 14

Chris12 says...

Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote:
Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.
I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.
Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases.
Bob,

How is it perverse logic? Of course the figure of £1m is a cost but they are looking at replacing 2 vessels with 1. This suggest replacing 2 crews with 1. They have suggested running less daily services. I'm assuming that in the 10+ years since the Incats were built (probably more years in terms of technology) that engines have be one a little more efficient. Establishing one base will reduce support costs, port staff, supply costs....

Price sensitivity, as you suggest would seem an unlikely way to increase revenue. Clearly increasing capacity by replacing both existing vessels isn't on the cards or they wouldn't be looking to replace both vessels with one that offers a mere 25% capacity against reduced frequency. Is Poole slightly better connected than Weymouth ? Possibly, depending on where you want to go or come from. Does the conurbation of Poole and Bournemouth mean there is a slightly greater market for day trippers?

Consolidating services on to 1 super ferry, as you rightly say is a way to reduce costs. Consolidating operations in one location may have the same effect. What's the better location, the one that has the capability and hadn't let the place fall apart whilst taking your money or the one that forced you to move away and incur costs despite frittering away your charges on . If I were Condor I'd be well hacked off.
[quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ![/p][/quote]The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.[/p][/quote]I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.[/p][/quote]Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases.[/p][/quote]Bob, How is it perverse logic? Of course the figure of £1m is a cost but they are looking at replacing 2 vessels with 1. This suggest replacing 2 crews with 1. They have suggested running less daily services. I'm assuming that in the 10+ years since the Incats were built (probably more years in terms of technology) that engines have be one a little more efficient. Establishing one base will reduce support costs, port staff, supply costs.... Price sensitivity, as you suggest would seem an unlikely way to increase revenue. Clearly increasing capacity by replacing both existing vessels isn't on the cards or they wouldn't be looking to replace both vessels with one that offers a mere 25% capacity against reduced frequency. Is Poole slightly better connected than Weymouth ? Possibly, depending on where you want to go or come from. Does the conurbation of Poole and Bournemouth mean there is a slightly greater market for day trippers? Consolidating services on to 1 super ferry, as you rightly say is a way to reduce costs. Consolidating operations in one location may have the same effect. What's the better location, the one that has the capability and hadn't let the place fall apart whilst taking your money or the one that forced you to move away and incur costs despite frittering away your charges on [insert local scheme of your choice]. If I were Condor I'd be well hacked off. Chris12
  • Score: 0

12:01am Wed 21 May 14

Chris12 says...

Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote:
Bob Goulding wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract !
The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.
I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.
Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases.
Bob,

How is it perverse logic? Of course the figure of £1m is a cost but they are looking at replacing 2 vessels with 1. This suggest replacing 2 crews with 1. They have suggested running less daily services. I'm assuming that in the 10+ years since the Incats were built (probably more years in terms of technology) that engines have be one a little more efficient. Establishing one base will reduce support costs, port staff, supply costs....

Price sensitivity, as you suggest would seem an unlikely way to increase revenue. Clearly increasing capacity by replacing both existing vessels isn't on the cards or they wouldn't be looking to replace both vessels with one that offers a mere 25% capacity against reduced frequency. Is Poole slightly better connected than Weymouth ? Possibly, depending on where you want to go or come from. Does the conurbation of Poole and Bournemouth mean there is a slightly greater market for day trippers?

Consolidating services on to 1 super ferry, as you rightly say is a way to reduce costs. Consolidating operations in one location may have the same effect. What's the better location, the one that has the capability and hadn't let the place fall apart whilst taking your money or the one that forced you to move away and incur costs despite frittering away your charges on . If I were Condor I'd be well hacked off.
[quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Struggling to see why central funds should be used to bail out a town that has just demonstrated incompetence in maintaining the existing facilities that the operator has paid to use over a number of years. It would be interesting to listen to the conversation when they went cap in hand to explain they needed a shed load of good new money to throw after the bad old money fritter away whilst the existing berth crumbled. Hardly demonstrating a safe investment. I'm not sure that the figures stated for an additional £1m in feud running from Poole is much of an argument. Is this simply not a statement of the increase in the planned fuel budget in comparison to Weymouth. Were they to move lock, stick and barrel, the budgeted amounts would be different, they would possibly save costs elsewhere by consolidating operations and perhaps gain more traffic from the wider conurbation. The new vessel is stated to be larger, so they could carry more more traffic each trip and as it is newer you would expect it to be more fuel efficient. Fag packet economics for the sake argument and it might mean £500k more fuel used with £250k saved on consolidating operations and £250k in increased traffic. They say that Weymouth benefits to the tune of £7m a year but is that just money that keeps the wolf from the door for hotels ? Is that money then spent in town in any meaningful way or just to maintain the status quo ? For how many years has the shopping centre been dying a slow death whilst this £7m rolls in ? Might a similar amount be generated by a marina and a redevelopment of the port where visitors may actually spend money in shops and restaurants rather than paying for a double with breakfast before jumping on a ferry? The outrage at the risk of losing a link is often heard loudest from those who don't use it. "Would you like to see ferry services from Weymouth, would you like to see more flights from Bournemouth......." naturally gets the response "Yes". Whether the respondents have used them or would use them to justify maintaining services or increasing them is another story. The CI route is slightly different from others in that it is a sort of lifeline. Other routes on the south coast rely on freight to help sustain operations whereas Condor have their freight operation based elsewhere. Islanders continue to complain at the high fares and there is the risk that flights might be as cheap or more convenient for those who can make do without their car or can hire one at the airport for a similar cost. Condor carries a fair amount of passengers on coach holidays who are simply dropped at the port before boarding. I'd argue that for many coach operators Poole is easier to reach and can be better incorporated in to their fleet planning to use coaches for other work once they've dropped off their passengers. Perhaps Weymouth should look to the future in a different way and not rely on a sole operator. Reality is that the CI cannot sustain 2 operators so even if the berth is rebuilt and Condor leave, nobody else is likely to come in. Operators to France are already struggling and have to look to the costs of adapting vessels to meet new sulphur emission rules. If a new berth is not built and Condor move away, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else would come in without the ability to take both passengers and freight. 40t artics trundling through the tone won't be welcomes not would there enough space at the port to fit them. Time to think creatively Weymouth and do something that makes use of the port area that isn't dependant on fixed term licences with a commercial operator who is entirely free to move away. We've already shown how much we actually value their business by forcing them to move away whilst we excused ourselves for taking their money and not maintaining our facility. Surprised they didn't take someone to court over breach of contract ![/p][/quote]The additional fuel cost of more than a million pounds was Condor Ferries' own number, not an estimate. Although there is little difference in terms of distance, clearly tidal and navigational factors have a significant impact on the operational efficiency of Condor vessels operating from Poole as opposed to Weymouth. No matter how fuel efficient the new craft may be, there will always be a cost disadvantage operating from Poole. Why do you think Condor Ferries were keen to return to Weymouth last year? Because it made good business sense.[/p][/quote]I'm not disputing the estimate of £1m. What I am saying is that in year X, Condor budgeted for fuel. They were then forced to run from Poole so incurred extra fuel costs compared to running from Weymouth. If they move lock stock and barrel to Poole and budget for the additional fuel as a permanent cost then it is not an additional cost, merely more than running from Weymouth. The problem is that the new vessel will operate differently, possibly less frequently and have the potential to carry more passengers each trip. The calculations for running a service are not the same. Returning to a port doesn't mean staying there forever. Many operators have come and gone at numerous ports n the south coast. You might just as easily ask why Condor have not severed all links to Poole.[/p][/quote]Rather perverse logic. Of course it is an additional cost that any savvy business would want to avoid. The other side of the profit and loss account is income and there are only two options here if the business is to remain viable: increase fares or increase volume. Experience would suggest that there is little scope to do either which is why Condor Ferries are looking at ways to reduce the frequency of services by consolidating traffic onto these so-called ‘super ferries’. Condor’s business model is very sensitive to fuel costs which, as we all know, can vary without warning. Transferring to Poole permanently would only exacerbate Condor's exposure to the impact of fuel cost increases.[/p][/quote]Bob, How is it perverse logic? Of course the figure of £1m is a cost but they are looking at replacing 2 vessels with 1. This suggest replacing 2 crews with 1. They have suggested running less daily services. I'm assuming that in the 10+ years since the Incats were built (probably more years in terms of technology) that engines have be one a little more efficient. Establishing one base will reduce support costs, port staff, supply costs.... Price sensitivity, as you suggest would seem an unlikely way to increase revenue. Clearly increasing capacity by replacing both existing vessels isn't on the cards or they wouldn't be looking to replace both vessels with one that offers a mere 25% capacity against reduced frequency. Is Poole slightly better connected than Weymouth ? Possibly, depending on where you want to go or come from. Does the conurbation of Poole and Bournemouth mean there is a slightly greater market for day trippers? Consolidating services on to 1 super ferry, as you rightly say is a way to reduce costs. Consolidating operations in one location may have the same effect. What's the better location, the one that has the capability and hadn't let the place fall apart whilst taking your money or the one that forced you to move away and incur costs despite frittering away your charges on [insert local scheme of your choice]. If I were Condor I'd be well hacked off. Chris12
  • Score: 0

8:20am Wed 21 May 14

Sally MacLennane says...

So if Condor REALLY brings 7m a year into the town, it should be a doddle to find the 10m for repairs, from the companies that benefit right????

Or more likely, that number is total tosh.
So if Condor REALLY brings 7m a year into the town, it should be a doddle to find the 10m for repairs, from the companies that benefit right???? Or more likely, that number is total tosh. Sally MacLennane
  • Score: -2

10:39am Wed 21 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

You never know what you have until it is gone.

10 million may be an obscene amount of money (to people like us) to find, but in the bigger picture, its small fry, when depreciated over 15 years, especially as it will modernise the ferry terminal to 21st century standards, and give Weymouh a facility big enough to accomodate much bigger ferries going forward, even if Condor do pull out (most unlikely) in the future.

It may even be attractive to the ferry companies serving the UK and Cherbourg going forward.

The development of Berth 1 really will guarantee the future of the Port going forward, and regardless of the rights and wrongs, its an opportiunity that cannot be missed.

Simon N.
You never know what you have until it is gone. 10 million may be an obscene amount of money (to people like us) to find, but in the bigger picture, its small fry, when depreciated over 15 years, especially as it will modernise the ferry terminal to 21st century standards, and give Weymouh a facility big enough to accomodate much bigger ferries going forward, even if Condor do pull out (most unlikely) in the future. It may even be attractive to the ferry companies serving the UK and Cherbourg going forward. The development of Berth 1 really will guarantee the future of the Port going forward, and regardless of the rights and wrongs, its an opportiunity that cannot be missed. Simon N. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 1

12:44pm Wed 21 May 14

JamesYoung says...

Simon Nicholas wrote:
You never know what you have until it is gone.

10 million may be an obscene amount of money (to people like us) to find, but in the bigger picture, its small fry, when depreciated over 15 years, especially as it will modernise the ferry terminal to 21st century standards, and give Weymouh a facility big enough to accomodate much bigger ferries going forward, even if Condor do pull out (most unlikely) in the future.

It may even be attractive to the ferry companies serving the UK and Cherbourg going forward.

The development of Berth 1 really will guarantee the future of the Port going forward, and regardless of the rights and wrongs, its an opportiunity that cannot be missed.

Simon N.
There seems to be quite a lot of consolidation in the ferry industry; i really wouldn't expect another company to move in. Therefore, while i agree £10m is a drop in the ocean, it is £10m wasted if the facility never gets used.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: You never know what you have until it is gone. 10 million may be an obscene amount of money (to people like us) to find, but in the bigger picture, its small fry, when depreciated over 15 years, especially as it will modernise the ferry terminal to 21st century standards, and give Weymouh a facility big enough to accomodate much bigger ferries going forward, even if Condor do pull out (most unlikely) in the future. It may even be attractive to the ferry companies serving the UK and Cherbourg going forward. The development of Berth 1 really will guarantee the future of the Port going forward, and regardless of the rights and wrongs, its an opportiunity that cannot be missed. Simon N.[/p][/quote]There seems to be quite a lot of consolidation in the ferry industry; i really wouldn't expect another company to move in. Therefore, while i agree £10m is a drop in the ocean, it is £10m wasted if the facility never gets used. JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

12:47pm Wed 21 May 14

JamesYoung says...

Simon Nicholas wrote:
arlbergbahn wrote:
The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy.
As far as I understand, they only intend to use one port once this new ferry is operational. Therefore, and as I said earlier, as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor will get their long term Channel Islands "sole operator" contract, which in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry", with Weymouth becoming the sole port of exit.

Its all one big interconnected "pack of cards" which is why everything is so blooming secretive!
I don't see what the Channel Islands has to gain from this stipulation about Weymouth. They probably care little about whether the service runs from Weymouth or Poole.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]arlbergbahn[/bold] wrote: The question which doesn't seem to have been asked is, what service pattern are the condor ferry company envisaging with this new craft? At the moment there are two distinct routes from the mainland: from Poole to the C.I. and back, and one daily round trip from Weymouth. These use two craft, Condor Vitesses from Weymouth & Condor Express from Poole. (Plus Condor Rapide from the C.I. to St Malo). Now are they envisaging using this new craft on both mainland routes, so it'll go (say) from Weymouth to Jersey, then back to Poole, then back to the C.I. and return to Weymouth, or would they keep the current pattern, for which they'd need two craft? If so. why not just keep the present one from Weymouth and use the new one from Poole? Then everyone'd be happy.[/p][/quote]As far as I understand, they only intend to use one port once this new ferry is operational. Therefore, and as I said earlier, as long as Weymouth funds and builds the new Berth 1, Condor will get their long term Channel Islands "sole operator" contract, which in turn allows them to complete the purchase of the new "super ferry", with Weymouth becoming the sole port of exit. Its all one big interconnected "pack of cards" which is why everything is so blooming secretive![/p][/quote]I don't see what the Channel Islands has to gain from this stipulation about Weymouth. They probably care little about whether the service runs from Weymouth or Poole. JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

2:59pm Wed 21 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Another issue that I has just been flagged up to me concerns the possible damage that could be caused by the propulsion units of the new vessel. Like the existing craft, the new vessel uses 'water jets', rather than conventional propellers, which can cause serious damage to the seabed and sea walls/quays if not used sparingly and with care. In fact I believe I read somewhere that much of the damage to berth 3 was caused by the ‘thrusters’ of Condor’s vessels.

Given that the approach to the berths in Poole harbour is relatively shallow with a sandy bottom, the introduction of more powerful water jet powered vessels must be a concern both to Condor and the Poole port authority. It is likely that the propulsion units would ingest of a considerable volume of sand and grit, which could cause damage and increase the frequency and cost of maintenance. In addition, it is likely that the port authority would have to impose speed restrictions to limit the damage to the harbour infrastructure.

I think this adds even more weight to the argument that the service should stay in Weymouth but does rather suggest that Condor should contribute to the upgrade of berth 1 even if it is on a staged basis.
Another issue that I has just been flagged up to me concerns the possible damage that could be caused by the propulsion units of the new vessel. Like the existing craft, the new vessel uses 'water jets', rather than conventional propellers, which can cause serious damage to the seabed and sea walls/quays if not used sparingly and with care. In fact I believe I read somewhere that much of the damage to berth 3 was caused by the ‘thrusters’ of Condor’s vessels. Given that the approach to the berths in Poole harbour is relatively shallow with a sandy bottom, the introduction of more powerful water jet powered vessels must be a concern both to Condor and the Poole port authority. It is likely that the propulsion units would ingest of a considerable volume of sand and grit, which could cause damage and increase the frequency and cost of maintenance. In addition, it is likely that the port authority would have to impose speed restrictions to limit the damage to the harbour infrastructure. I think this adds even more weight to the argument that the service should stay in Weymouth but does rather suggest that Condor should contribute to the upgrade of berth 1 even if it is on a staged basis. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 1

7:03pm Wed 21 May 14

Chris12 says...

Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements.

I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.
Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements. I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract. Chris12
  • Score: 0

7:48pm Wed 21 May 14

Simon Nicholas says...

Chris12 wrote:
Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements.

I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.
Chris,

I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable.

However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause.

Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice.

Simon N..
[quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements. I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.[/p][/quote]Chris, I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable. However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause. Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice. Simon N.. Simon Nicholas
  • Score: 0

9:23pm Wed 21 May 14

Bob Goulding says...

Simon Nicholas wrote:
Chris12 wrote:
Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements.

I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.
Chris,

I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable.

However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause.

Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice.

Simon N..
Quite agree. I believe that Condor are only keeping their options open in case Weymouth refuse to play ball. It is clear to me that Condor actually do not want to operate the new vessel from Poole as it would be more costly and would make maintaining schedules more difficult.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements. I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.[/p][/quote]Chris, I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable. However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause. Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice. Simon N..[/p][/quote]Quite agree. I believe that Condor are only keeping their options open in case Weymouth refuse to play ball. It is clear to me that Condor actually do not want to operate the new vessel from Poole as it would be more costly and would make maintaining schedules more difficult. Bob Goulding
  • Score: 0

10:43pm Wed 21 May 14

JamesYoung says...

Bob Goulding wrote:
Simon Nicholas wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements. I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.
Chris, I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable. However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause. Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice. Simon N..
Quite agree. I believe that Condor are only keeping their options open in case Weymouth refuse to play ball. It is clear to me that Condor actually do not want to operate the new vessel from Poole as it would be more costly and would make maintaining schedules more difficult.
Not to mention the fact that if they went to Poole the council there would probably want a formal contractual commitment :-)
[quote][p][bold]Bob Goulding[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Simon Nicholas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris12[/bold] wrote: Surely if the harbour depth was a problem they wouldn't continue running from there. It was dredged further to take the bigger Brittany ferry to 7.5m. Express draft is 3.5, new vessel is stated as 4.5 and there is already a limit to the speed in Poole. The berth that Condor uses was built with rock to protect it - something Weymouth may have overlooked following the crumbling incident. The new vessel is also claimed to be built with lower installed power so we are really comparing a 20 year old vessel with a much newer one of a different design. Sand ingestion and performance characteristics could be totally different , alongside the running costs, crewing costs and maintenance schedule requirements. I understand the concern of them moving but they will surely consider the operational and logistical facts of the ports and vessels. Unless the deal with the Islands requires them to operate from Weymouth, the decision will be with the operator and what suits the new vessel and the new contract.[/p][/quote]Chris, I understand where you are coming from, and accept most of it. My thinking is however that if Condor had already decided to operate from Poole due to the size of the new vessel, they would have already announced it, and with it, the last ever sailing out of Weymouth would be at the end of March 2015, at the end of the current sailing timetable. However, they have not done so, and remain in a three way negotiation with Weymouth and the Channel Islands. They also obvioiusly know that the council and the MP are running around trying to fund the Berth redevlopment - they would not be doing this is they knew it was a lost cause. Therefore I have to assume, that despite the merits of Poole, Weymouth, for whatever reason, remains their first choice. Simon N..[/p][/quote]Quite agree. I believe that Condor are only keeping their options open in case Weymouth refuse to play ball. It is clear to me that Condor actually do not want to operate the new vessel from Poole as it would be more costly and would make maintaining schedules more difficult.[/p][/quote]Not to mention the fact that if they went to Poole the council there would probably want a formal contractual commitment :-) JamesYoung
  • Score: 0

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